Internal Power

[YouKnowWho]

A: I have "internal power" and you don't.
B: Whether I have "internal power" or not should not be your concern. Can you explain how did you develop your "internal power"?
A: I don't want to make that information available to the public.
B: Can you at least put up a clip to show your "internal power"?
A: Even if I put up a clip, You still won't be able to see it. I can only show you in person.

Do you agree with A's argument?

IMO, if you have "internal power (IP)" in your

- punch, you should be able to put up a clip to show how you will apply your "internal power" on a heavy bag.
- throw, you should be able to put up a clip to show how you will apply your "internal power" on a throwing dummy.

I know this is not an "internal" forum, but if something you are not willing to share, you should not start a thread and talk about it. That kind of attitude bother me big time.

What's your opinion on this?

[IronFist]

Sounds like some "guru" nonsense.

I would want to see quantifiable proof showing that the "internal power" is not something that can be explained away by muscular strength, proper application of body mechanics, parlor tricks, or physics.

For example, if someone is using "internal power" to break the bottom brick, how is that different than using physics to break the bottom brick?

If someone is using "internal power" to withstand blows to the stomach, why are their abs tensed at the moment of impact and how is that any different from taking a blow to the stomach without using "internal power."

So far I have never seen an example of this.

There's even a guy on youtube who breaks the bottom brick with a sledge hammer. If he was a "guru" he could tell people he was projecting his qi through the hammer and into the brick. What a high level of skill!

Every "iron body" demo I've seen that involved sledge hammers to the stomach involved the recipient flexing every muscle in his body at the moment of impact. Usually they're fat, too, which helps absorb the strike. That's physics and proper application of body mechanics, not "internal power."

The correct test for "iron body" is this:

1) the practitioner is blindfolded so he can't tell when the strike is coming and flex

2) the practitioner can do qigong for as long as he likes, and then give a signal when his qi is built up to sufficient levels, and at some point after that the strike will come.

3) the practitioner is not wearing a shirt so observers can help look for visual cues to see if he's flexing his muscles

4) the practitioner's abs are not tightened at the moment of impact because he is absorbing the blow with internal energy rather than tensed muscles

Please note: Because everyone gets butthurt every time this gets brought up, the ability to absorb a sledgehammer blow to the stomach requires a high level of skill. You should be proud of your accomplishments. I'm not saying you're a p.ussy, and I'm not saying you have no skill. I'm just saying, tell it like it is: you're absorbing the blow the same way boxers and everyone else does. There's no mystic internal energy there.

Of course, then the "gurus," backed into a corner with science and logic, will say "but qi is responsible for all of that, so if you're flexing your muscles you're still using qi and internal power."

But let's not be ridiculous. That's not the (mystical kung fu) impression you're trying to give when you tell people you have internal power.

Now excuse me, I'm off to the gym to lift some weights (with my qi, since qi is responsible for muscle movement).

So to answer your question, person A is most likely a charlatan. If not, he should give James Randi a call rather than arguing about it on the internet, because James' $1,000,000 prize would make him a lot more money than he will get ripping off gullible students who want to learn "teh secretz of internal powAr!!!"

[YouKnowWho]

I'm off to the gym to lift some weights ...

I have asked this question before and I have not be able to get any answer from anybody yet.

What's the difference between using "internal" power to lift weight vs. using "external" power to lift weight? For some unknown reason, "internal" guys just don't want to talk about "lift" and I don't know why.

Does anybody have answer for this question?

[xiao yao]

i really think "internal power" is just correct body mechanics, understanding and application of relaxation and tension and use of intent.

[xiao yao]

i spent some time learning a qigong system which was supposed to build up "internal power". we would do standing postures then hit trees and iron palm bags. really, the power to break bricks had little to do with the qigong itself, but from the repetition of striking the bags or trees

some people who had done the qigong for a year or more still couldnt break a brick, yet others can break a brick without even doing qigong

[Dragonzbane76]

Where is TGY when u need him...

[RenDaHai]

The word 'internal' is a word I try never to use in MA.

Using it without explaining EXACTLY what you mean by it simply means you have no idea what your talking about.

There are several types of 'internal power' in KungFu, but the problem is everyone says internal but they are talking about different things. Typically these things are;

1. Structure
2. Breath
3. 'Internal' Muscle
4. Intent
5. Qi

Structure is like, if you are lifting a box you lift with your knees not your lower back...I don't think this should be called internal, its structure, and that's a better word for it. Or body mechanics.

Breath, if you are out of breath you feel weak. Also breath is directly linked to concentration. But breath is a better word than internal for this.

Internal muscle, i don't know what this is but people talk about it.... Someone please enlighten me.

Intent, Intent is more powerful than any physical attribute. This is true. My master used to say 'Your fist is a gun, but your mind is the bullet'. Again, intent is a better word than internal here.

Qi. There are many types. Often Qi is the language of communication between the mind and the body. It is many mental/physical sensations, some of which can be evoked or controlled. This could be referred to as internal. Its use is in deep meditation and many mysterious things, but I have never seen any evidence to suggest it makes you physically stronger. It is more an element of the mind.


I think if people want to talk about 'internal' they should define what they mean first. Otherwise don't talk about it, or go back to your master and understand it before you teach it.

[mickey]

Greetings,

The best question to ask "A" after his first statement is -- What can you do with it?

We all have this "internal power". We are born with it. Some may call it pre natal chi. Still, it is how we use it, how we express it, and the cultivation that leads to such manifestations that makes all the difference. If "A" cannot break it down for you, leave him to his world of delusion.

mickey

[SPJ]

internal and external not vs

they are 2 aspects of the same thing/body yi ti liang mian

we have to train both aspects to be better.

we may train external aspect first then improve on internal

or we may train internal aspect first then external later.

the first path is called wai jia

the second path is called nei jia.

not one without the other.

due to gravity pull from mother earth

our bone, muscle and heart are constantly working against it.

etc etc.

[David Jamieson]

1. Yes I believe in internal power
2. Yes, you cannot "see" it, but then again, yes you can!
3. Yes, some people do not access internal power and although strong and able to lift large objects etc, they do not have the ability to expel force in teh form of striking very well because they lack the internal power.

When you develop an ability to see, you will be able to tell by how a man carries himself whether or not he possesses something special.

It is not common. If it was common, every jackwagon on the circuit would be upright, smooth and cool about the dangerousness of their being. lol

Some have it and don't realize they have it. These people are especially interesting to me.

Some people have it and have developed it through entirely different means than anything prescribed by asian martial arts. For instance Jack LaLanne had tremendous internal power.

Just to clarify, Internal Power isn't = to core strength, but that is part of it. Internal power is when the whole machine that is you is running hot and optimally. you are able to sense all and have a state of awareness and ability that is more than average when you develop outward and inward understanding.

[mickey]

WHAT CAN YOU DO WITH IT?


mickey

[taai gihk yahn]

Where is TGY when u need him...

trying to have a life outside the forum...

in a nutshell, "internal power" comes from, I believe, a level of body awareness (proprioception) that enables you to seamlessly coordinate muscle function with breathing and ground reaction force coming up through your legs / spine; meaning that, you can have good "internal" power, but may not be as physically strong as a guy who strength trains; meaning that, IMPO, there is a qualitative aspect that can't necessarily be measured / quantified; qigong is one way to get this, but I believe you can also obtain it doing things as varied as wrestling, Alexander Technique, Pilates, even flamenco (based on what I saw in Spain last week); it has to do with ease and economy of usage; it can be a useful compliment in fighting, but I don't think is the end-all, be-all;

to talk about it as if it doesn't "exist" per se, I don't buy that, but to see it as quasi-mystical, and unachievable outside of the realm of TCMA is not right either; if it exists as an intrinsic human capability, than by necessity it can be achievable in many ways;

the problem is that many people use the seemingly esoteric nature of it to build their practice and themselves up in a way that makes them "special" as compared to others who engage in more "primitive" pursuits such as weight lifting...

[IronFist]

I have asked this question before and I have not be able to get any answer from anybody yet.

What's the difference between using "internal" power to lift weight vs. using "external" power to lift weight? For some unknown reason, "internal" guys just don't want to talk about "lift" and I don't know why.

Does anybody have answer for this question?

You can't use "internal" power to lift weights. You lift weights with muscular strength and proper body mechanics (eg. proper form). Those are "external" things.

There's no qi power involved, unless you want to say that "qi is responsible for all movement" in which case there is no distinction between internal and external in the first place so the entire discussion is moot.

Some internal guys will say biomechanically incorrect stuff like "internal is lifting with your tendons as opposed to lifting with your muscles," but what they don't realize is tendons don't flex and you can't lift anything with your tendons. It's just nonsense left over from the whole "weights are bad" belief common in TMA from the 50s and 60s.

[Scott R. Brown]

Where is TGY when u need him...

Who is TGY?

....and,

What's a life, and where can I get one of those thingies?

[IronFist]

These discussions always get derailed.

Everyone here knows that when someone talks about "internal" anything, they are talking about qi, mystic power being used in mystic ways to give abilities and skills above those who don't do "internal" training. But the slick-talking snakeoil salesmen "gurus" always derail the conversation into "well qi is all of life, you get qi from food, so when you lift weights, you're using qi" and other nonsense, when everyone except the most gullible of gullibles knows that's NOT what is being discussed.

Then you get the people who "want to believe" so they change the definition of internal so they don't think they've wasted years of training on nothing. "Well, to me, 'internal' training is about having proper body alignment and breath coordination and blah blah blah" all of those things are external and have no qi or mystic internal energy component.

I am not talking about possibly intangible health benefits. If doing standing post qigong makes you feel better, then by all means, keep it up! You can't quantify if you feel better or not to anyone else.

It's just this "I stop punches with my qi" or "I root myself with qi and cannot be pushed over" nonsense that no one can prove because it's all stage tricks and proper application of physics. You're not actually sending your qi through your feet into the earth and creating a root with it like magical glue to hold you in place when someone pushes you.

Just like a fat guy flexing his abs and rounding his back and exhaling when he is struck with a sledgehammer is not protecting himself with qi. He's protecting himself with physics and proper body mechanics, and the same thing can be done by a non "internal" guy who has had the right training.

Much of the mystique and appeal of the TMA, especially TCMA, comes from the internal component. Look at all the demos (stage tricks) and stuff that make noobs and the uninitiated think "wow, that guy has mystic power!" TCMA banks on this kind of stuff! Look how many "develop your qi power" courses there are in MA magazines. People want to learn that stuff, so it's in the interest of the art to perpetuate the myth.

Physical conditioning is real. If you hit your forearms with iron body bags, they will become less sensitive to pain, and the bone will become more dense over time (Wolff's law). But it's not qi. Thai boxers, with their strictly external training, have just as good of shin conditioning as TCMA guys who do iron shin training with the iron body bags and all the qigong components that accompany it. But the fraudsters downplay the role of the external conditioning and instead tell the audience that "he is sending his qi into his shins to protect them" to add to the mystical component, when what is really "protecting" his shins is the years of external conditioning that was slowly increased over time. Of course, the audience wants mystic power, so people give them mystic power.

You guys probably fall for those "magnetic energy bracelets," too, because the guy demoing them showed you that you're harder to pull off balance when you're wearing one. Holy crap it's aligning your qi! Better buy one for each wrist and have unstoppable chi powerz!!!