Internal Power

[IronFist]

lol so sad its true

Seriously.

This is my favorite kung fu forum on the internet. Not only are all topics allowed here, but administrator Gene Ching even allows critical discussion and debate and different points of view

[Lucas]

Thats cuz he has an army of nacho ninjettes, he aint ascare of nuthin. this is actually the only internet forum i visit.

[Shaolin]

A: I have "internal power" and you don't.
B: Whether I have "internal power" or not should not be your concern. Can you explain how did you develop your "internal power"?
A: I don't want to make that information available to the public.
B: Can you at least put up a clip to show your "internal power"?
A: Even if I put up a clip, You still won't be able to see it. I can only show you in person.

Do you agree with A's argument?

IMO, if you have "internal power (IP)" in your

- punch, you should be able to put up a clip to show how you will apply your "internal power" on a heavy bag.
- throw, you should be able to put up a clip to show how you will apply your "internal power" on a throwing dummy.

I know this is not an "internal" forum, but if something you are not willing to share, you should not start a thread and talk about it. That kind of attitude bother me big time.

What's your opinion on this?

At my level, my opinion is if a practitioner can't logically explain the use and development of "internal" power referencing or modeling their statements based on scientific theory such as thermodynamics they probably don't know what they're talking about; which most don't.

[Neeros]

At my level, my opinion is if a practitioner can't logically explain the use and development of "internal" power referencing or modeling their statements based on scientific theory such as thermodynamics they probably don't know what they're talking about; which most don't.

So essentially all the generations of past masters of the eastern "internal arts" had no clue what they were talking about as they had no background in western science and did not model their experiences through western scientific theories?

[wenshu]

If you are a seditious 17th century Han Chinese then maybe you know something about "internal power" but you can't really talk about it directly.

[IronFist]

Sometimes the fraudster messes up, with hilarious (although tragic) results.

Watch this video as mystic power protects against knife cuts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5hCczfGYv0

[Neeros]

If you are a seditious 17th century Han Chinese then maybe you know something about "internal power" but you can't really talk about it directly.

How would being a rebellious 17th century Han make you know anything about internal force? And why can't one talk about it directly?

[taai gihk yahn]

So essentially all the generations of past masters of the eastern "internal arts" had no clue what they were talking about as they had no background in western science and did not model their experiences through western scientific theories?

yes and no;

yes, they knew what they were talking about in terms of a) their personal direct experiences with the various body-based phenomena experienced due to their training, and b) they were able to describe internal practice utilizing the metaphorical language of Taoist internal alchemy;

no, they didn't know what they were talking about, because they had no concept of biochemistry, cellular physiology, neuroanatomy / physiology (especially the autonomic nervous system, which mediates much of what occurs during qigong practice), or even basic muscle anatomy (to wit - the conflation of muscle, tendon and ligament as "sinews"); as such, the best they could do was to describe their experiences and employ a theoretical paradigm that revolved around macro pattern observation; that was the limit of their technology at the time, plain and simple;

the problem is that many people think that there is intrinsically no better way to talk about qigong / internal practice than in the dense and abstruse imagery of Taoist Alchemy, and that so-called "western science" will never be able to adequately describe what is happening;

so-called "ancient masters" did the best they could to describe physiological function with what they had at the time; but now we have better, more accurate means available; so in a very real sense, we know more than the ancient masters did;

[GeneChing]

Seriously.

This is my favorite kung fu forum on the internet. Not only are all topics allowed here, but administrator Gene Ching even allows critical discussion and debate and different points of view

Wouldn't be much of a discussion forum if we didn't allow for some debate. Thanks for your support, IF!

Thats cuz he has an army of nacho ninjettes, he aint ascare of nuthin. this is actually the only internet forum i visit.

I'm always scared that the cheese will go cold and the chips will go soggy. Cold soggy nachos are such a bum out.

[IronFist]

Back in the day I can see how Chinese kung fu dudes may have thought they were manipulating qi moving through their bodies.

I fully understand how a concept such as that of "qi" could develop, and I also understand that it would be natural to try and experiment and see if one could manipulate it. I think that is human nature.

But I wonder how it transitioned from that into the parlor tricks we see today. At what point did it go from "if I do standing post qigong I can feel the qi moving through my body" to "I'm going to absorb strikes to my body with muscular tension, body conditioning, and proper application of physics, but I am going to blame it on mystical energy so people think I have magic powers."?

Seriously the only thing I can think of is that it was intentionally meant to defraud people, much as ninja back in the day supposedly encouraged the rumors that they could transform into animals and turn invisible. If your enemy is afraid of you, you stand a better chance of not being attacked and therefore surviving.

But the implications of this are interesting. On one hand, I see no issue with trying to convince your enemies that you have special powers. It's the ancient equivalent of psyching them out, of getting inside their head. The issue now is, when people want to go to your school because you specifically teach these "powers," they are by definition not going to learn them because they don't exist. So do you a) let the student in on the scam, or b) let them think they're actually learning mystic powers? Because all that qi power is not going to stop a blade from cutting you anywhere other than at your demo on stage in front of laypeople who believe you have magic powers.

Again, I'm not saying physical conditioning isn't real. I'm saying physical conditioning is a result of physical adaptation (increased pain tolerance and Wolff's law) and will occur regardless of if you do special qigong exercises or not. And all the demo stuff that requires special stances, special techniques (such as being hit in just the right place with just the right part of the board, etc.), etc. has nothing to do with internal power or anything else other than physics and physical conditioning. And sometimes some slight of hand, like in the demos where they break bricks on the edges of steps.

[YouKnowWho]

You can't use "internal" power to lift weights. You lift weights with muscular strength and proper body mechanics (eg. proper form). Those are "external" things.

There's no qi power involved, unless you want to say that "qi is responsible for all movement" in which case there is no distinction between internal and external in the first place so the entire discussion is moot.

Why qi power cannot be involved in

- vertical weight lifting?

How about

- vertical downwand pulling?
- horizontal pulling?

Can qi power only be used in

- horizontal pushing?

What's the limitation of the qi power (if it does exist)?

[Shaolin]

yes and no;

yes, they knew what they were talking about in terms of a) their personal direct experiences with the various body-based phenomena experienced due to their training, and b) they were able to describe internal practice utilizing the metaphorical language of Taoist internal alchemy;

no, they didn't know what they were talking about, because they had no concept of biochemistry, cellular physiology, neuroanatomy / physiology (especially the autonomic nervous system, which mediates much of what occurs during qigong practice), or even basic muscle anatomy (to wit - the conflation of muscle, tendon and ligament as "sinews"); as such, the best they could do was to describe their experiences and employ a theoretical paradigm that revolved around macro pattern observation; that was the limit of their technology at the time, plain and simple;

the problem is that many people think that there is intrinsically no better way to talk about qigong / internal practice than in the dense and abstruse imagery of Taoist Alchemy, and that so-called "western science" will never be able to adequately describe what is happening;

so-called "ancient masters" did the best they could to describe physiological function with what they had at the time; but now we have better, more accurate means available; so in a very real sense, we know more than the ancient masters did;

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[Dragonzbane76]

TGY... The only problem i have is the mystical conotation people attach. But ronin stated it best with cultural attachments. I have a grasp of internal generation but isn't every interpretation different?

[IronFist]

Why qi power cannot be involved in

- vertical weight lifting?

How about

- vertical downwand pulling?
- horizontal pulling?

Can qi power only be used in

- horizontal pushing?

What's the limitation of the qi power (if it does exist)?

To be used in any of those applications it would have to be doing something other than what can be accomplished externally.

How is vertical weight lifting internally any different from vertical weight lifting externally?

That is a question that an internal practitioner would have to answer, and the onus of proof is on them to prove they are doing something other than just external, or that which can be replicated strictly externally.

[YouKnowWho]

How is vertical weight lifting internally any different from vertical weight lifting externally?

That sound like an excellent Phd desseration subject. For so many "internal" masters that exist in the world, I would assume someone should have done such research already. I'm sure all the weight lifters in the world would like to read such article.