Shaolin Chaoyang Quan

[Crosshandz]

Hey whats the background on Shaolin Chaoyang Quan? Just curious.

[LFJ]

We talked about it a bit on the Luohanquan thread.

It has relation to Zhaoyangquan, Guanchaoquan, etc., each of which have several roads. The sets are Qing Dynasty creations of monk Shi Zhanju who entered the monastery in 1790. So they are probably from early 1800's.

If you see performances of Chaoyangquan and Zhaoyangquan you will notice almost identical structure and sequence, but obvious differences in strategy which their names allude to. Chaoyang, meaning 'Facing the Sun' has straight forward attacks, out in the open with nothing hidden as if 'in the sun'. Zhaoyang, meaning 'Bright Sun' has a lot of two-hand, three-limb, simultaneous high-low attacks used to deceive and cover, as if the opponent's eyes are pierced by the 'bright sun' and can't see the attacks clearly.

Chaoyangquan was created first. Then Shi Zhanju altered the strategy into the more rude Zhaoyangquan set.

[sha0lin1]

Hey LFJ

My Master told me that Chaoyang was created by an emperors daughter about 800 years ago while she was studying at Shaolin, ever heard of that one?

[LFJ]

Ha, no! Haven't heard that one. It sounds like part of a plot in an old Shaolin movie from the 70's. Ever see Shaolin Temple Strikes Back?

[GeneChing]

My understanding is that creation myth refers to one of two Emperor's daughters.

The first is Princess Minglian, daughter of Emperor Liang Wudi (502-549 CE). She was Bodhidharma's female disciple. She took the Buddhist name Zhuanyun and is considered by many as the first Chinese Buddhist nun.

The second was Princess Yongtai, daughter of Emperor Xuanwu (500-515 CE). She became abbess of the nunnery that was built on site of Zhuanyun's hut. This, of course, is known today as Yongtai Nunnery, which is in the foothills near Shaolin Temple.

There's more on Yongtai Nunnery here: Yongtai Girls Wushu School.

[RenDaHai]

I haven't heard that one either!

The forms can't be that old looking at them, but he name could be.

Chaoyang/Zhaoyang Quan as they are commonly practised are as LFJ said very similar sets with a couple of modifications.

However there is also a San Lu Zhao Yang Quan unrelated to the popular set. It is long and contains good technique and is unmistakably Shaolin. The sect this was practised in also used the popular form above but referred to it as 'GuanChao' Quan (Tide watching form?).

So in total there are 4 forms in this family. (5 if you count the variation Chao/Zhao)

I practice the common form and I have a book which contains the second road of the SanLu Zhaoyang, and have seen bits of the others, but they are exceptionally rare and may well exist in this one sect only. All 4 (Zhaoyang) were passed down by Shi Degen last century.

Their could well be others, when I asked my old master about Zhaoyang Quan he performed a few moves I'd never seen in the others......

I will ask again when I can.

[LFJ]

My understanding is that creation myth refers to one of two Emperor's daughters.

The first is Princess Minglian, daughter of Emperor Liang Wudi (502-549 CE). She was Bodhidharma's female disciple. She took the Buddhist name Zhuanyun and is considered by many as the first Chinese Buddhist nun.

The second was Princess Yongtai, daughter of Emperor Xuanwu (500-515 CE). She became abbess of the nunnery that was built on site of Zhuanyun's hut. This, of course, is known today as Yongtai Nunnery, which is in the foothills near Shaolin Temple.

There's more on Yongtai Nunnery here: Yongtai Girls Wushu School.

Well, I know of these princesses, and that Yongtai mastered the Shaolin arts, but at that time the material wasn't nearly as sophisticated. Never heard any story of either of them creating Chaoyangquan, which is quite impossible.

But I think you've confused a couple characters here. In fact, the history of the Yongtai Monastery follows the stories of three princesses- Zhuanyun, Minglian, and Yongtai. Minglian's Dharma-name was Zongchi (Zhuanyun was a different person).

The first Chinese Buddhist Nun, Princess Zhuanyun, was the daughter of Northern Wei Dynasty Emperor Wencheng, who built a small hut to practice the Dharma prior to Chan/Bodhidharma's arrival in China. Next to her small hut, later named Zhuanyun Convent, there was built the Minglian Monastery which was the forerunning site of the present day Yongtai Monastery.

Full history here: Yongtai Monastery || The Shaolin Nunnery

[sha0lin1]

Well, I know of these princesses, and that Yongtai mastered the Shaolin arts, but at that time the material wasn't nearly as sophisticated. Never heard any story of either of them creating Chaoyangquan, which is quite impossible.

But I think you've confused a couple characters here. In fact, the history of the Yongtai Monastery follows the stories of three princesses- Zhuanyun, Minglian, and Yongtai. Minglian's Dharma-name was Zongchi (Zhuanyun was a different person).

The first Chinese Buddhist Nun, Princess Zhuanyun, was the daughter of Northern Wei Dynasty Emperor Wencheng, who built a small hut to practice the Dharma prior to Chan/Bodhidharma's arrival in China. Next to her small hut, later named Zhuanyun Convent, there was built the Minglian Monastery which was the forerunning site of the present day Yongtai Monastery.

Full history here: Yongtai Monastery || The Shaolin Nunnery

Thanks you have jogged my memory. It was Zhuanyun who he told me created Chaoyang Quan.

[LFJ]

Thanks you have jogged my memory. It was Zhuanyun who he told me created Chaoyang Quan.

Well, as she was the daughter of Emperor Wencheng (440-465) she would have been around at the very early years of Shaolin. There's simply no way something like Chaoyangquan is over 1500 years old.

It having been created by Shi Zhanju a couple hundred years ago is far more likely, and there's documentation for that as well.

Of the three princesses, only Yongtai is said to have trained in the Shaolin fighting arts (what simple bit there was at the time).

[sha0lin1]

Well you know, legends are legends and that is about it. They make interesting stories though.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

One thing to think about, is that there may very well be a wide difference between the creation of the style itself, and the creation of its forms. It could very well be that the style existed as lose techniques used in a common strategy of footwork, positioning and body method, hundreds of years before the forms were developed.

I think that many times, what we call the development if the style, is just when the forms were codified. All the sets created when the Abbot Fu Ju was documenting the Song Military arts is an example.

We tend to think those styles were created at that time, but in reality they go back countless generation before that.

[GeneChing]

My bad.

Well, I know of these princesses, and that Yongtai mastered the Shaolin arts, but at that time the material wasn't nearly as sophisticated. Never heard any story of either of them creating Chaoyangquan, which is quite impossible.

We're talking creation myth here. Most all kung fu creation myths are apocryphal. It's just like the Bodhidharma creation myth; While the facts may be incongruous, that doesn't invalidate the attribution. There's an underlying reason why such myths are created, and there in lies a special kernel of Shaolin culture and lore.

[LFJ]

We're talking creation myth here. Most all kung fu creation myths are apocryphal. It's just like the Bodhidharma creation myth; While the facts may be incongruous, that doesn't invalidate the attribution. There's an underlying reason why such myths are created, and there in lies a special kernel of Shaolin culture and lore.

So what do you presume the underlying reason for these creation myths might be?

In many cases, attributing something to Bodhidharma makes it sound more credible and helps it become more widespread, whether it's martial arts material, or Buddhist scripture.

For example, there is a commentary on the Heart Sutra in Chinese that is attributed to Bodhidharma. The only thing is, the commentary uses the version of the Heart Sutra that was written by Xuanzang who—oops!—came about 100 years after Bodhidharma.

But then we have creation myths such as Xiaohongquan & Dahongquan being created by a pair of father and son refugees surnamed 'Hong', who after being taken in and cared for by the Shaolin monks gifted them these two sets. But the particular Xiaohongquan and Dahongquan sets being referred to are not even related.

It would seem to me that such myths come from people who really have no idea about the actual history. It serves no practical purpose, but to maybe throw people off, but why?

One of the greatest throw-off ideas I've heard was the creation of a female character named Yim Wingcheun whose name cleverly admonishes followers to orally pass on the art in secret so as to leave no trace of its origin. The practical purpose of this was to hide from the Qing government.

[jeoge]

Interesting post

[GeneChing]

So what do you presume the underlying reason for these creation myths might be?

To be honest, I've never really given it much thought as I've never learned this form. I'm interested in any insights those of you that practice have upon Zhuanyun as a mythic creator.

I don't see most creation myths as an effort to throw off outsiders. That's very fanqing fuming (反清復明) and while I'm sure it exists on some level, I find most of the attributions are to honor the creator. Did you ever read my article The Rod of the First Patriarch: Monk Shi Decheng Reveals Shaolin's Tamo Cane in the Shaolin Special 2005? In it, my master confirmed my opinion that such attributions were simply "named so by the people just trying to show respect."

A lot of people will also say it attributions to legends was just advertising, and to some degree it was, only that advertising back then wasn't nearly the same as it is today. The greatest virus of modern technology is advertising. However, back then, back when these forms were fresh, a attribution to Zhuanyun probably didn't win that many more students than one to Tamo. Actually, this discussion has peaked my interest a tad, as Zhuanyun is a really interesting figure to attribute as a creator, which just has to beg that question - why?

There's that whole ambiguity about Chaoyang (朝阳 - see Shaolin Gong Fu – A Course in Traditional Forms where it is translated as 'sunny form') versus Zhaoyang (昭阳 - see Shaolin chaoyang quan by Shi Deyang), which as LFJ astutely recalled, has been discussed on the Luohan Quan thread. The character chao (朝) can also be pronounced as 'zhao'. It can mean 'morning'. This sort of ambiguity isn't at all uncommon in the martial arts, especially given that many of the influences on Shaolin are from folk masters who aren't always literate. It's that classic game of Chinese whispers. Is it the same set or, through the sketchy transmission, has it evolved into something else? Not that something else would be necessarily invalid. That would be akin to saying mammals are invalid amphibians because they evolved.

But that doesn't quite address why Zhuanyun might be attributed as a creator. I have a few theories but it's all conjecture and am very open to discussion. One theory is that the yang is the same yang as in yin yang - the 'male' essence, light and sun. To attribute this to a female creator strikes a poetic balance - the harmony of yin and yang. I have this other rather sketchy theory about Yongtai Nunnery, which is noted for its sunsets and how that would be balancing with the dawn allusion in the name Chaoyang. That's pretty tenuous however.

Note that these are just offhand opinions, just for discussion's sake, as I've not really researched this particular form at all. Anyone else got anything?