Shaolin Chaoyang Quan

[LFJ]

Well, this is the first I've heard of it or anything being attributed to Zhuanyun. Wonder if Sha0lin1's shifu also told a story to it, or just named her as the creator.

As my post #2 states, the meaning and reason for the two names Chaoyang and Zhaoyang (Facing/Exposed to the Sun & Bright Sun) have to do with their fight strategies.

Btw, the character 昭 can only be pronounced 'zhao', but although the character 朝 as you said, Gene, can be pronounced as either 'chao' or 'zhao', as I have seen it is always pronounced 'chao' with this particular set. So the meaning is 'facing' or 'exposed to', rather than 'morning'.

Although, I've also heard it explained as 'morning sun' referring to a certain posture in the set with arms stretching above the head, as if one just woke up. The posture mimics one of the 18 Arhats, Panthaka, who is always depicted in this posture as he was just coming out of meditation on a mountain facing the morning sun. Well, there you go.. 'facing the morning sun'. It could be either 'facing' or 'morning'. But anyway, it's always pronounced 'chao' with this set, for 'facing the sun'.

This makes me yawn:

[sha0lin1]

Well, this is the first I've heard of it or anything being attributed to Zhuanyun. Wonder if Sha0lin1's shifu also told a story to it, or just named her as the creator.

As my post #2 states, the meaning and reason for the two names Chaoyang and Zhaoyang (Facing/Exposed to the Sun & Bright Sun) have to do with their fight strategies.

Btw, the character 昭 can only be pronounced 'zhao', but although the character 朝 as you said, Gene, can be pronounced as either 'chao' or 'zhao', as I have seen it is always pronounced 'chao' with this particular set. So the meaning is 'facing' or 'exposed to', rather than 'morning'.

Although, I've also heard it explained as 'morning sun' referring to a certain posture in the set with arms stretching above the head, as if one just woke up. The posture mimics one of the 18 Arhats, Panthaka, who is always depicted in this posture as he was just coming out of meditation on a mountain facing the morning sun. Well, there you go.. 'facing the morning sun'. It could be either 'facing' or 'morning'. But anyway, it's always pronounced 'chao' with this set, for 'facing the sun'.

This makes me yawn:

No, the only story he told was that she was the daughter of an emperor who had come to study at Shaolin and while there created the form. He translated it as "Morning Sun" fist. Could be as Gene has said that the attribution of her creating the form could have been to honor her as the emperors daughter or maybe the emperor himself. When I learned this form he did not speak as good english as he does today, I will revisit this next time I see him.

[bawang]

chaoyang means uppercut.

[GeneChing]

As my post #2 states, the meaning and reason for the two names Chaoyang and Zhaoyang (Facing/Exposed to the Sun & Bright Sun) have to do with their fight strategies.

Can you elaborate on this a little? How exactly does the fight strategy relate to facing the sun?

I love that Panthaka reference. That's just the sort of thing I enjoy about Shaolin and exactly my point with creation myths. It's a gateway to studying Buddhism. Time to research Panthaka too. In Xiao Luohan (Part III) Performed by Shi Guolin from our 2001 November/December issue, I gave some cursory descriptions of the 18 Luohan. I described Panthaka as "Depicted seatd, often holding a scroll or subduing a dragon. Retains 1300 arhats." Of course, that was 2001, when the internet was still young (wikipedia was just launched that year) so there weren't near as many resources as there are now. If memory serves, I pulled those descriptions from distilling a few books I had in my library.

[LFJ]

Can you elaborate on this a little? How exactly does the fight strategy relate to facing the sun?

Well, perhaps "Exposed to the Sun" is a better translation. From my post #2:

Chaoyang, meaning 'Facing the Sun' (Exposed to the Sun) has straight forward attacks, out in the open with nothing hidden as if 'in the sun'.

Zhaoyang, meaning 'Bright Sun' has a lot of two-hand, three-limb, simultaneous high-low attacks used to deceive and cover, as if the opponent's eyes are pierced by the 'bright sun' and can't see the attacks clearly.

So you see, the two sets are like Yin and Yang. One is more passive and "honorable" fighting, while the other is more aggressive and deceitful.

You can see the difference clearly when comparing the first section of the two sets. Below in Shi Deyang's performance of Zhaoyangquan you see simultaneous low kicks and sneak attacks, and a low kick creeps in below the double spear hands action before turning around.

In Shi Deqi's performance of Chaoyangquan you don't have any of those sneak attacks using multiple limbs to attack at once, and the double spear hand is just a double spear hand with no low kick thrown in below it.

There are other differences throughout the sets, but Shi Deyang altered his for the video, so it's lacking a lot of detail in parts. You can still see it though.

(A bit of history is explained at the beginning of Shi Deyang's video. It says Qing Dynasty monk Shi Zhanju created Zhaoyangquan based on Chaoyangquan [which he also created], after reconsidering the fight strategy.)

Zhaoyangquan - Shi Deyang
Chaoyangquan - Shi Deqi

[Xian]

Hey LFJ,
The man in the second video is Chen Jun Jie, he is 31th Generation not Shi Deci.I researched him because I was looking for his Qi Xing Quan.



Kind regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

Hey LFJ,
The man in the second video is Chen Jun Jie, he is 31th Generation not Shi Deci.I researched him because I was looking for his Qi Xing Quan.



Kind regards,
Xian

Yes, I know who he is. I didn't say Shi Deci (释德慈), but Shi Deqi (释德启). That is Chen Junjie's Dharma name.

[Xian]

Yes, I know who he is. I didn't say Shi Deci (释德慈), but Shi Deqi (释德启). That is Chen Junjie's Dharma name.

I am sorry my bad,I really thought I have read Deci and that at least two times...


Kind regards,
Xian

[charliegreens]

I learned the form in the video from Shi Deyang as Chao Yang Quan and the form in the video of Shi Deqi (a little different) as Zhao Yang Quan. It's confusing to me, because two former monks I know told me Shi Deyang's form is called Chao Yang Quan.

[LFJ]

I learned the form in the video from Shi Deyang as Chao Yang Quan and the form in the video of Shi Deqi (a little different) as Zhao Yang Quan. It's confusing to me, because two former monks I know told me Shi Deyang's form is called Chao Yang Quan.

Well, a lot of people in Dengfeng don't have the most fantastic Mandarin and aren't terribly literate. It also takes knowing the history and concept of the styles to know the correct way 朝阳 should be pronounced. But 昭阳 has only one possible pronunciation anyway.

[RenDaHai]

I'll just relay what ShiYongWen said once.

That the san lo Zhaoyang quan is the real shaolin Zhaoyang quan. The other form is part of the family but called GuanChao Quan individually. ShiDegen taught This form extensively and referred to it as Zhaoyang quan. However when he taught the san lu Zhaoyang he admitted that this was the real Zhaoyang and the other was called guanchao quan.

As to the Chaoyang variation... I do not know.

My assumption is generally that there was a substyle called 'Zhaoyang quan' and that all its individual forms had individual names as well as being called Zhaoyang quan. The first part is probably the popular form and because it is popular it has developed into the two distinct variations. The larger san lu set is still practiced by Shi Yong Wen but whether he taught it I do not know and I haven't heard of anyone else practice it.

I am still investigating the style and will ask my old master about it when I get a chance.



On a side note...

So you see, the two sets are like Yin and Yang. One is more passive and "honorable" fighting, while the other is more aggressive and deceitful.

We often refer to 'bright' strikes in Shaolin as obvious and straight attacks with no deception as you say. But it is not always so honourable. The artist knows his attack is obvious but obvious as it is it must still be defended, and often it will insight this defence on purpose to destroy it. In this case the skill is in combination. There is another type of strike referred to as bright in shaolin and it is the skill of striking slowly. There is a threshold speed of the hand, below which the opponent does not interpret it as an attack. However even slowly if you strike the correct target with the correct action the strike can be damaging because the opponent allows himself to be hit without defence. This is a very difficult skill to use because it is hard to move calmly under stress. This is also referred to as 'White tiger scoops out heart' (as opposed to black which is deceptive).

[bawang]

chaoyang means uppercut. it is a codeword from longfist. chaoyang as in "tanma chaoyang" of xiaohongquan.

you guys are never gonna figure out the codewords if you get milked and only know the techniques as "horse stance punch block" "bow stance push palm".


chan is simplicity. by overcomplicating things to satisfy your own ego you forsake chan buddhism.

[RenDaHai]

chaoyang means uppercut. it is a codeword from longfist. chaoyang as in "tanma chaoyang" of xiaohongquan.

you guys are never gonna figure out the codewords if you get milked and only know the techniques as "horse stance punch block" "bow stance push palm".


chan is simplicity. by overcomplicating things to satisfy your own ego you forsake chan buddhism.

Interesting..... Kind of like ChongTianPao.

Chaoyang quan does contain this technique....

[bawang]

they are the same thing.

chaoyang is an older obsolete term. older names conceal the meaning while new names embellish it.

[wenshu]

Interesting..... Kind of like ChongTianPao.

Chaoyang quan does contain this technique....

Chang Hu Xin Yi Men.