Sabatoge at the Great Lakes Kung Fu Championships

[GLW]

There is a big issue with one part of a previous post :

"fighters wear our gear which include 14 oz boxing gloves, boxing head gear, chest protector and shin pads"

When, as a promoter, you provide the gloves, head gear, chest protector, and shin pads, in essence, you are making a legal claim that the equipment is in condition to do its job.

Having dealt a bit with the legal part of this, what that means is that there is an implied liability that comes with an implied guarantee of the equipment.

This is why so many events mandate the type of equipment required - down to the weight of the gloves, type of shin guard, type of chest or head guard, type of mouth and groin protection...but they more often than not do NOT supply the gear.

If they state what is to be used and do a check, the competitor then assumes the legal liability for the equipment being in good order. This also means that the ring officials do not have to examine their own equipment after each bout.

So, regardless of the issue here, I would suggest that promoters need to be fully aware of the legal implications of their events...and in particular the implied fit for use of equipment.

[Pork Chop]

This is why so many events mandate the type of equipment required - down to the weight of the gloves, type of shin guard, type of chest or head guard, type of mouth and groin protection...but they more often than not do NOT supply the gear.

Maybe we're going to different events, but the only events where I've seen the gear NOT being provided is at kung fu tournaments.

[Pork Chop]

The Boxing Commission SHOULD regulate San Shou to protect the fighters.

It's ridiculous holding full contact fights WITHOUT the boxing commission overseeing it. I refuse to take any fighters to Taiji Legacy (Legends of Kung FU) because the boxing commission is not involved.

This may be conjecture & second-hand information, but my understanding (from coaches that I've talked to) is that in Texas, all of those requirements exist, but the promoter is responsible for footing the bill. PLUS, the promoter has to pay the boxing commission/state athletic commission a "cut" of the gate for "sanctioning." The end result is a huge portion of the gate goes to meeting these requirements and paying the commission - basically nothing left after you factor in renting out the venue.

I was told that this is the reason Saeksan stopped putting on events and it's one of the reasons muay thai is all but dead in Texas (event-wise).

[B-Rad]

Did you contact Nick Scrima about this and ask him why he did it? Just seems like going to the public forum without talking to the other guy first is a good recipe for starting a long lasting feud

[ginosifu]

Did you contact Nick Scrima about this and ask him why he did it? Just seems like going to the public forum without talking to the other guy first is a good recipe for starting a long lasting feud

Yes we did... He stated that he was possibly sending fighters to our tourney and wanted to see if we had used the OAC. He was concerned about the safety of his fighters.

The problem with his reply is that we have been fellow kung fu teachers for over 20 years and know exactly what each other does and does not. He knew how my teacher runs our tourney... He even has been a judge at many of our tourneys. There is no way he does not know how my teacher runs his tourney.... There is no excuse not to call up front and just ask... "What is going on with San Shou"

ginosifu

[B-Rad]

Ah, sorry, I see you stated that earlier. I misread the first time. Yeah, that's pretty shady. I always hated seeing people that I otherwise respected engage in petty petty behavior. Too many out there overestimate their importance in the grand scheme of things, and like to play politics.

[GeneChing]

Was he ever connected with your event?

[ginosifu]

Was he ever connected with your event?

Yes Nick lived here in Cleveland for a long time. He was the promoter of our tournament for the very first year (1991 or 1992 I forget), after that he left for Florida and my teacher took over the the tournament.

ginosifu

[MasterKiller]

This may be conjecture & second-hand information, but my understanding (from coaches that I've talked to) is that in Texas, all of those requirements exist, but the promoter is responsible for footing the bill. PLUS, the promoter has to pay the boxing commission/state athletic commission a "cut" of the gate for "sanctioning." The end result is a huge portion of the gate goes to meeting these requirements and paying the commission - basically nothing left after you factor in renting out the venue.

I was told that this is the reason Saeksan stopped putting on events and it's one of the reasons muay thai is all but dead in Texas (event-wise).

Yeah, you have to pay them. That's the cost of the doing proper business. It's not a huge portion. I've seen small shows clear 10K easy after all the fees were paid, including travel costs to the fighters and coaches. If they can do it, Taiji Legacy certainly should be able to.

But since Taiji Legacy guts the fighters and makes them pay because they can't sell tickets, it's a losing proposition for them. They don't need spectators because the fighters pay HUGE entry fees. What a joke.

The bottom line is, if you want to play Big Boy sports, you have to conduct yourself like a Big Boy.

[MasterKiller]

If we as a Kung Fu Orginazation do all the highlighted above (except checking for HIV, HEP and do not pay our fighters), what's the difference? If we provide a safe environment, have REAL doctors on site, provide all proper safety gear (fighters wear our gear which include 14 oz boxing gloves, boxing head gear, chest protector and shin pads), enforce weight limits etc what's the difference?

ginosifu

So possibly exposing your fighters to contractable blood born pathogens is an acceptable risk for you? Do you tell fighters that, on top of paying your entry fees and travel costs to get there, they might go home with Hepatitis because it's not worth your time to make sure their opponent was tested?

[ginosifu]

So possibly exposing your fighters to contractable blood born pathogens is an acceptable risk for you? Do you tell fighters that, on top of paying your entry fees and travel costs to get there, they might go home with Hepatitis because it's not worth your time to make sure their opponent was tested?

Here I agree with you... I think maybe I will sit down with my teacher and talk about having HIV and HEP testing added to fighting events.

ginosifu

[Orion Paximus]

Hey, who doesn't have a little hepatitis these days?

[GLW]

I did not say that the promoter could NOT supply the required gear.

What I DID say was that when the promoter does supply the gear, there is an implied guarantee that the gear at all times meets the safety requirements.

This can be difficult if the gear is reused. In events where the gear is owned by the promoter and supplied to the competitor, the promoter must make sure that there is an inspection with the competitor when the gear is provided to them. Then, when it is handed back, it must be cleaned and disinfected (blood and other bodily fluids must be removed and the objects need to be sanitized...like a wash down with bleach and then alcohol (alcohol is mainly to remove the bleach smell and residue).

The gear has to be checked for breaks and tears at each point.

One of the issues that ended with the AAU CMA moving away from doing Sanshou events was in part the legal requirements about the "guarantee" of the safety of the provided equipment.

As for Texas, the laws here have pretty much made full contact things die out. The funny thing is that it started no so much out of a desire for a Boxing Commission takeover but due to concerned parents.

Seems that fight clubs were becoming a popular thing at a number of colleges. Some students had some injuries and one of the sets of parents had connections and started a crusade.... voila!...you have new laws. (at least that is the history I was able to track down but there could be more to it).

[YouKnowWho]

my teacher took over the the tournament.

ginosifu, May I ask who is your teacher?

[ginosifu]

ginosifu, May I ask who is your teacher?

John Ervin Sifu - You probably know him yourself. He studied with GM Chang back in the 80's when he was here in Cleveland.

ginosifu