Shifting, Body Turning and Footwork

[Happy Tiger]

O.K. I'm starting it. The three most central, most basic of all Ving Tsun concepts. Let's weigh in first!!!

[JPinAZ]

I dissagree. YJKYM is more basic than those 3. I'd further say centerline is the MOST central/basic/fundamental concept of WCK

Footwork, shifting, etc are more 'advanced' concepts over those of SNT, and I'd argue that those focused on in SNT have more importance.

[EternalSpring]

And I disagree with posts 1 and 2! Chong Choi is the most basic, central, and fundamental of which Chun concepts as it covers centerline theory, economy of motion, structure, and can advance into other things such as training sensitivity, etc. Which then applies further because the punch can be replaced with other techniques (ex: cycling tan/bong/fook/biu/dim journ/vuong journ/phoenix eyes/tiger and eagle claws/etc).

but yea, Im just being semi annoying to disagree with people lol. The stuff about Chong Choi aside, I do understand that we all have diff views based on how we learn and what things are central to the style. But with that said, I do agree that shifting, body turning, and footwork are very important.

Footwork was the first thing that I realized I had to work on when I started testing my Ving Tsun in sparring. I look at it as similar to the way I was taught to train boxing (which im still very much a noob in). For example, I could use all sorts of punches on a heavy bag, but if I'm not moving my feet (and head and body), I'm just training to stand in one spot and throw punches, which quickly, at least for me, proved to be a bad way to train once I had to spar with people. I'm not a Hung Fa Yi guy, but I do always love reading about when their practitioners talk about "kiu sao (not that i actually fully understand it, but from what i do understand)," because i think the concept is def important and all sifus should teach something similar. Footwork is the key to bridging the gap, imo.

Right now, my Ving Tsun, in application involves a lot of moving around. It's working for me, but at the same time, I will admit that I haven't completed the system and my sisook did once tell me that while my movement was good, there were other potentially better ways to move. I tend to switch my stances and side step and move in a lot. My sisook destroys me when we spar by literally just moving completely into my space. I'm guessing that my footwork and moving methods are part of the chain of progression of Ving Tsun movement as taught in my family.

[couch]

O.K. I'm starting it. The three most central, most basic of all Ving Tsun concepts. Let's weigh in first!!!

The forms teach (and are a signpost) for all three.

The Siu Nim Tao teaches the basic position and facing.

The Chum Kiu shows the 'gray area' in which the centreline can be shifted in order to gain power, distance and protection. There is limited footwork here, but it gives an idea.

The Mook Yan Jong has useful footwork, shows power generation in kicking and trips.

The Biu Jee has minor footwork additions, but shows trips, etc.

The Luk Dim Poon Kwan shows penetrating force from a side-on position and how to gain power and stay mobile with a long weapon.

The Baat Jam Dao form has some forward darting and great retreating steps. Both weapon forms have traditional horse stance and cat stances.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Shifting, body turning and footwork exist for the following reason:
To get you out of the way of your attacker, maintaining you balance and CL towards your attacker so that you can attack him with correct structure and maximum results.

That is what they are for.
All the drills and forms create a solid BASE for that, but sparring activates it and refines it ( it being the base created).

[Yoshiyahu]

I agree with Sanjuro That Shifting, Footwork, And Turning can be utilized for getting out of the way of an attacker.

As well as neutralizing his force. You can shift or turn to bring yours foes force to nothingness.


in addition shifting and turning can be use to generate power with your structure. Ie chum kiu...

Also footwork can be use to evade and side step or flank an opponent so you can go directly into him with out entering his attacking line.

Also Chi Sau, San Shou and Sparring with footwork is key!

[wingchunIan]

footwork is the key to every martial art. The challenge in every martial art is trancending drills and making your footwork live.

[Lee Chiang Po]

O.K. I'm starting it. The three most central, most basic of all Ving Tsun concepts. Let's weigh in first!!!

Maintaining center and defending center is the most basic concept. Body turning and your footwork are just methods of maintaining center. All else comes after center line concept. Evading force, evading contact, persuing an opponent, striking and kicking, all follow the center line concept. Sil Lim teaches us to do everything dead of center. Or very close to it. From there we learn to move and carry these concepts to our opponent. But without your devotion to center you will not be able to focus these other methods and moves.

[wingchunIan]

most central Wing Chun concepts for me would be, centreline, elbow driven movements and relaxation (which later develops to sensitivity and on/ off power), all of which are focused upon in the first section of SNT. Until you integrate footwork though they remain just that - concepts.

[LoneTiger108]

O.K. I'm starting it. The three most central, most basic of all Ving Tsun concepts. Let's weigh in first!!!

Shifting, Body Turning and Footwork

Funny that all three can be practised to a very very high level without even using the hands, so no I wouldn't say these things are the most central methods of Wing Chun. In fact, they are probably the most varied from family to family!

The forms teach (and are a signpost) for all three.

The Siu Nim Tao teaches the basic position and facing.

The Chum Kiu shows the 'gray area' in which the centreline can be shifted in order to gain power, distance and protection. There is limited footwork here, but it gives an idea.

The Mook Yan Jong has useful footwork, shows power generation in kicking and trips.

The Biu Jee has minor footwork additions, but shows trips, etc.

The Luk Dim Poon Kwan shows penetrating force from a side-on position and how to gain power and stay mobile with a long weapon.

The Baat Jam Dao form has some forward darting and great retreating steps. Both weapon forms have traditional horse stance and cat stances.

Best response so far, and it keeps things simple, as it should be.

[Jubei1]

Very hard to choose just 3 important concepts in VT but I feel that Wingchun Ian's 3 are very important. Having said that, I would have to say centerline, straight line, and facing to be important basic concepts of VT for me. All three concepts are also introduced to the student in the first part of SNT and before any type of foot work.

[Happy Tiger]

Shifting, Body Turning and Footwork

Funny that all three can be practised to a very very high level without even using the hands, so no I wouldn't say these things are the most central methods of Wing Chun. In fact, they are probably the most varied from family to family!



Best response so far, and it keeps things simple, as it should be.

That's a BINGO fer shur!
O.K. so... now we have a good idea of what these three concepts represent in action, and potential. What I'm most interested in here is 'formula'. We also have imput on how 'central' and important these ideas really are.That they actually revolve (closely) around the really basic things we all know...Lone Tiger hit the nail on the head. These are the three most varied ideas and concepts from family to family!This is gonna be good!!!

[trubblman]

O.K. I'm starting it. The three most central, most basic of all Ving Tsun concepts. Let's weigh in first!!!

I think the most central of VT concepts is winning fights. Every thing else is in support of that goal.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the most central of VT concepts is winning fights. Every thing else is in support of that goal.

That's just crazy talk !!

[LoneTiger108]

Here is a very basic look at how I see what you are attempting to discuss here, as to what good it will do, I have no idea!

1. Shifting - in relation to exact foot contact while shifting, I use the ball, centre and heel for various objectives. I have never been told that 'we only shift on this point', it was more like 'this for for such and such, and this point for such and such etc. I will leave others to argue otherwise.

2. Body Turning - I use three main body alignments in everything I do, again all having specific purpose. These have names I have mentioned plenty of times before, including Pinsun, and believe it or not each is very well represented in the Ip Man Wing Chun I learnt and shouldn't be viewed as another system completely imho.

3. Footwork - as my lineage is considered very traditional, I have always taught Muifa footwork prior to any mobility practise. This is very similar to many methods I have seen in other Southern Arts and it helps develop smooth transition. Later, once Chum Kiu begins, more structured strength building mobility is introduced.

It will be good to see other ideas too as I too think this is quite a decent subject to discuss.