Drawing the Wing Chun Blades

[wingchunIan]

Not that I aint enjoying the conversations gents, but has anybody actually answered my questions?



Ths is really addresing those that have only practisd the form from Ip Man, as there tends to be no opening set or scabbard use. I find this strange because most decent knife sellers sell a scabbard with the blades

Every demo I have ever seen already has the knives 'drawn', mainly held over the shoulder like some kind of farmer, then a lifting leg work before separating the blades, double chop and away they go!

Has anyone here actually got a clip of ANY demo of themselves using their knives? And if you have, are you willing to share just a little?

Its only strange if you base your perspective of the knives on what modern day equipment retailers like to provide. When the knives were practical they would have been tucked into belts or laid on a surface on a boat etc ready to grab. In my lineage there is a move at the start of the last section that would replicate drawing the knives from your belt. I will try to get some footage of me and my si bak using our knives. Oh and a heads up, my sifu will be releasing his third book later this year which is dedicated to the BJD.

[LoneTiger108]

Its only strange if you base your perspective of the knives on what modern day equipment retailers like to provide.

True but part of what I am saying is the scabbard protects your blades over time, so if you are thinkng of a longer term investment I would want a scabbard and not be worried about spending a bit of money.

When the knives were practical they would have been tucked into belts or laid on a surface on a boat etc ready to grab. In my lineage there is a move at the start of the last section that would replicate drawing the knives from your belt. I will try to get some footage of me and my si bak using our knives. Oh and a heads up, my sifu will be releasing his third book later this year which is dedicated to the BJD.

I'm looking forward to your Sifus book release, and will probably catch up with him at TMAS next month.

As for the belt drawing method, this is exactly what I was hoping SOMEONE would mention because I think we have the same set in our familys BJD (not that I know it though!) It is the 'middle' ground as there was no need for the scabbard if you had a sash to tuck your blades into. Problem is, there are few that even wear a sash these days...

[couch]

It is very 'traditional' to learn the Pole and Knives forms and that be it. Many schools just teach the empty hand forms and some basic drills anyhow, letting the student figure out what it's all about.

Now that WC has spread like wildfire, there are more and more drills for the empty hand forms cropping up all the time - however, it seems that this hasn't happened with the weapons.

I learned the weapons 'traditionally' in the sense that it pretty much ended with the forms.

I have gone to Escrima and Celtic stickfighting to learn to use my weapons properly. My Filipino/Celtic stickfighting instructor told me about an article that was written. It stated how a Chinese group asked a Filipino group over to teach them weaponry - and then killed them after they were finished instructing.

I don't think that we should view our weaponry as so 'pure' of Chinese martial art lineage. There is a good chance that things have been mixed over the years.

Plus, why reinvent the wheel when other styles have solved the 'weapon' problem? Actually, I ended up showing my instructor the BJD form and he ripped it apart from his viewpoint. Very helpful: http://darkwingchun.wordpress.com/20...chun-exchange/

CTK

[LoneTiger108]

It is very 'traditional' to learn the Pole and Knives forms and that be it. Many schools just teach the empty hand forms and some basic drills anyhow, letting the student figure out what it's all about.

I totally agree and I also think that this is one of the major issues with regards to students still feeling empty after so many years, looking for other things to fill their cups.

I have gone to Escrima and Celtic stickfighting to learn to use my weapons properly. My Filipino/Celtic stickfighting instructor told me about an article that was written. It stated how a Chinese group asked a Filipino group over to teach them weaponry - and then killed them after they were finished instructing.

I don't think that we should view our weaponry as so 'pure' of Chinese martial art lineage. There is a good chance that things have been mixed over the years.

And here is my point. You have had to go elsewhere to learn your weaponry 'properly'? Was this your own decision or did your Sifu send you there?

As I have mentioned earlier in the thread, crossing Wing Chun with Filipino and Escrima arts has happend throughout Europe mainly due to Leung Ting linking with such groups. This, FME and IMHO is not good for your habits using our specific design of blades. And besides, I am happy with my seurng gwun knowledge learnt through my Sifu as it was considered a speciality of his and his Sifu.

Plus, why reinvent the wheel when other styles have solved the 'weapon' problem?

Because they have solved it with 'their needs in mind'. We have a totally different purpose in our method, and I am sure that if you learnt a standard BJD as I have generally seen it would cause such a reaction from a skilled double stick man as your article suggests.

The BJD is like all other Ip Man forms. They act as a framework to build upon but you do need constant training with skilled people to take your own learning to them heights expected by others.

[couch]

And here is my point. You have had to go elsewhere to learn your weaponry 'properly'? Was this your own decision or did your Sifu send you there?

My Sifu gave me all he can give in regards to weaponry. I went on my own accord because I'm the only one who's responsible for me and my martial arts knowledge and application. I know what you're trying to do with those questions. I've been around the forum for a minute. You're trying to find fault in my research by suggesting that if only I had 'the real Wing Chun' that I wouldn't have had to search someone else out. Typical close-minded reaction.

The f arther we get away from the source and the use of these weapons, the sillier it gets when it comes to forms and applications. This is even happening in the Filipino styles.

Because they have solved it with 'their needs in mind'. We have a totally different purpose in our method, and I am sure that if you learnt a standard BJD as I have generally seen it would cause such a reaction from a skilled double stick man as your article suggests.

Different purpose? Like...cut the guy to pieces and don't get cut?

The BJD is like all other Ip Man forms. They act as a framework to build upon but you do need constant training with skilled people to take your own learning to them heights expected by others.

Exactly - I need to train with skilled people. Case in point as to why I sought someone with a solid weaponry background out.

[Happy Tiger]

Knives are a large family of weapons. BJD technology is specialised and not totally transferable to other knife groups. I was wondering, does any one train with just one? In Canada it's illegal to carry this class of knife as a side arm...unless you can prove it's part of your religion.

[CFT]

Hey Kenton, so do you still do BJD? Is the exchange about finding experienced weaponry players to train your BJD against, along the lines of testing yourself against MT/MMA for empty hands? Or are their fundamental changes to actual execution or practice as a result of these exchanges?

[LoneTiger108]

I know what you're trying to do with those questions. I've been around the forum for a minute. You're trying to find fault in my research by suggesting that if only I had 'the real Wing Chun' that I wouldn't have had to search someone else out. Typical close-minded reaction.

Actually, you're looking a bit too much into what I'm writing. I have no closed mind, you should understand that. I consider myself very lucky to have learnt from my Sifu but I in no way think what I have is 'real' over others, that's just stupid yapping. I am different. My lineage is not as known as many others. That's all.

Different purpose? Like...cut the guy to pieces and don't get cut?

I'm sorry if that's what you think our blades are for because I didn't learn to hack away relentlessly at an opponent to 'cut them to pieces'. That's insane

I see Wing Chun weaponry as 'te' most accurate and skilled weaponry out there. It's one cut. The end. And we have an array of things to help us deliver that one cut that starts from our first day learning SLT.

Exactly - I need to train with skilled people. Case in point as to why I sought someone with a solid weaponry background out.

Fair point and case made for you to move on. I have too, but for very different reasons but I still return to my Sifu every now and again and keep in touch with my peers.

[LoneTiger108]

Hey Kenton, so do you still do BJD? Is the exchange about finding experienced weaponry players to train your BJD against, along the lines of testing yourself against MT/MMA for empty hands? Or are their fundamental changes to actual execution or practice as a result of these exchanges?

Good question...

[couch]

Hey Kenton, so do you still do BJD? Is the exchange about finding experienced weaponry players to train your BJD against, along the lines of testing yourself against MT/MMA for empty hands? Or are their fundamental changes to actual execution or practice as a result of these exchanges?

The exchange is about finding the similarities instead of the differences.

[GlennR]

My Sifu gave me all he can give in regards to weaponry. I went on my own accord because I'm the only one who's responsible for me and my martial arts knowledge and application. I know what you're trying to do with those questions. I've been around the forum for a minute. You're trying to find fault in my research by suggesting that if only I had 'the real Wing Chun' that I wouldn't have had to search someone else out. Typical close-minded reaction.

Bravo Sir!

Different purpose? Like...cut the guy to pieces and don't get cut?

Touche!

Exactly - I need to train with skilled people. Case in point as to why I sought someone with a solid weaponry background out.

Thats ok, but just make sure it doesnt involve sparring or any of that nonsense

[LoneTiger108]

The exchange is about finding the similarities instead of the differences.

This was the whole reason I started to post in this forum Kenton, but was set-upon by anyone and everyone because my 'differences' seem 'too different'! Kind of like anyone with a new approach, like the HFY guys as an example.

That was almost 5 years ago and looking at this thread there still seems to be the same attitudes to my attempts at exchange here? And I thought we were all getting past throwing insults and having pi$$ing contests

[Frost]

This was the whole reason I started to post in this forum Kenton, but was set-upon by anyone and everyone because my 'differences' seem 'too different'! Kind of like anyone with a new approach, like the HFY guys as an example.

That was almost 5 years ago and looking at this thread there still seems to be the same attitudes to my attempts at exchange here? And I thought we were all getting past throwing insults and having pi$$ing contests

to be fair it seems to me as an outsider that you do seem to come off saying my way is different better and i have something you dont have...this thread is a classic example of that.......also you keep asking people to put clips up but dont put any up yourself...im sure that gets on peoples nerves to
oh and im not having a go for once, but simply pointing out how ever unintentional your actions are thats how they do seem on occasion

[LoneTiger108]

to be fair it seems to me as an outsider that you do seem to come off saying my way is different better and i have something you dont have...this thread is a classic example of that.......also you keep asking people to put clips up but dont put any up yourself...im sure that gets on peoples nerves to
oh and im not having a go for once, but simply pointing out how ever unintentional your actions are thats how they do seem on occasion

Thanks for pointing this out.

I know this is how my posts are taken by some, but this is not intentional on my part (well, sometimes it is!) I am trying to learn to exchange ideas and share in an open manner and sometimes if I get a crappy response from someone I will only give them a crappy reply back. Simple.

As for the clips, seriously?

I will now expect you to say the same to anyone of the number of guys who post here and have never shared a clip of themselves!

And FWIW I have shared my clips on a number of times, but you can guess what happens...

[Frost]

Thanks for pointing this out.

I know this is how my posts are taken by some, but this is not intentional on my part (well, sometimes it is!) I am trying to learn to exchange ideas and share in an open manner and sometimes if I get a crappy response from someone I will only give them a crappy reply back. Simple.

As for the clips, seriously?

I will now expect you to say the same to anyone of the number of guys who post here and have never shared a clip of themselves!

And FWIW I have shared my clips on a number of times, but you can guess what happens...

Surely if you wanted to exchange opinions you would have stated in your first post why you think drawing the blades is important, how you train it and how you protect your own blades, then asked for others if they have similar methods?

Yes seriously asking for clips of knife forms without posting your own can annoy people I suspect, and I have said the same (buit in no where near a nice a manner) to Kevin on several occasions