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Thread: Drawing the Wing Chun Blades

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Surely if you wanted to exchange opinions you would have stated in your first post why you think drawing the blades is important, how you train it and how you protect your own blades, then asked for others if they have similar methods?
    Believe it or not, I simply started the thread off-the-cuff in response to the crazy stabbing clip and seeing far too many Wing Chun students lean towards the Filipino methods of late, which IMHO can have a negative affect on your Wing Chun habits.

    I didn't really think of spending so much time going into what/how I trained until I had a response because I randomly access this site at work and have limited time! Then the thread seemed to derail a little and, well, here we are!

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Yes seriously asking for clips of knife forms without posting your own can annoy people I suspect, and I have said the same (buit in no where near a nice a manner) to Kevin on several occasions
    It's funny you say that, but I have not really asked for peoples knife form?? I have only enquired if people have been taught this sort of thing by their Wing Chun Sifu?

    2 very specific questions that have been answered by very few here.

    That's what happens when you try to share something with politicians and that is why I can sometimes come across sharply, because I have little interest in all the political mess. I'm simply interested in sharing things I know about Wing Chun and learning from others who care to share too.

    Sadly, there are far too few here these days.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Yet you say in your videos that it should be done up high and not lower? It may be the way you do it in your TWC but you were talking about WSL as some sort of authority to explain your method, but he didn't do it like you. You've inaccurately used him to explain TWC concepts several times, but I could take any part of TWC Siunimtau and explain why WSL didn't do it like that, like wusau in front of the face.

    Also your arm is at about a 90° angle with the fingers almost straight up. WSL never did taansau like that. It's always driving forward into the opponent with the fingers directing the movement from start to finish. It would appear that if you go straight up against a much stronger force from a swinging hook punch that sort of taansau would collapse.

    Of course this is just a different perspective. Your way may well work for you, but I'm just commenting on how WSL's method is not quite as you describe or demonstrate. It may be that I don't understand the TWC method, but equally I would say you have not understood WSL's and can't use him to validate your way.
    was referring to 0:35 in this clip:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPdl-mGKL-Y

    and 0:42 in this clip:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-nGwcE5B5A


    There are many similarities between what I do and what Si-Bak WSL show.
    I teach to raise the Bong not go over the top with the bong just like he shows here at: 3:40 here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guBKfDox5qs
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    Btw, I love Wing Chun and never berate other WC lineages. IMO we are one family. Sometimes dysfunctional but still family. :-)
    Right on. I was merely discussing differences and wasn't trying to "argue" with you as LongTiger108 thought. That being said;

    I was referring to 0:35 in this clip:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPdl-mGKL-Y
    I know which clips you were talking about. Already explained the taansau on mukyanjong is done in such a way because of where the arms are in a fixed position and that they can't move. To further illustrate that point;

    Similarly at 1:14 in that clip there is a kwansau where the low bongsau hits the dummy's lower arm, and because it doesn't move like a person's leg would, the opportunity is taken to throw in a mansau to continue the flow of the sequence into the "air" kwansau with a kick.

    In actuality, from the leg block one would continue straight through with the kwansau and kick. But the dummy's arms don't move, so it's done differently than in application.

    Same thing with the taansau and many other actions throughout the set. It takes being taught not just seeing to understand. Have a look at his Siunimtau or end of Chamkiu and see where his taansau is and how it works.

    There are structurally better alternatives to guarding powerful high level hooks or angled punches, which I believe you've shown on your Youtube channel, such as biusau, laapsau, or even wusau.

    Speaking of wusau, in WSLVT it's not done at the face either. Just like taansau we ideally want to be on top of the opponent, to where it's difficult for them to get power back up. If catching a straight punch to the face with the outside of a wusau pulling it back to the face is where it will lead it. So we draw it down as we retract.

    At first mention he showed a super close range kick defense where you jam your arm down to the side (because you've turned the body). It doesn't extend out to the front or nearly as far as you said he did, or as you do it in your Siunimtau.

    After the 1:00 mark he begins showing the more likely application of the side action which is an escape from different types of armbars and locks.

    After the 4:00 mark he begins showing the more likely kick defense action, which is the one to the front not the side. It's the same movement as at the end of Chamkiu, as he showed.

  4. #64
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    Okay guys...

    Before we all get our panties in a twist about where your tansau lies and start drifting into a debate about nothing imho, can either of you just answer my bloody question?!!

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    If you have been lucky enough to learn first-hand any knife work from your Wing Chun Sifu, whether that be basic drills or the whole of Ip Mans Eight Chopping Knife set, was there any time that you learnt:

    1. How to defend your own blades? (ie. to stop them being taken from you)

    2. How to draw your knives? (ie. using a sheath/scabbard)
    I mean, it really isn't that hard. But considering some of the responses here I guess I can pretty well asume that there are very very few, if any, of you who have been taught methods like this. I'm okay with that because it actually makes me think what the hell have I learnt!!??

    I was only discussing these sorts of things with one of my uncles eldest guys last night, who totally loves his knife form, and we are attempting to piece together the variations within our own family so I totally see why there can be massive differences from one Sifu to the next.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Before we all get our panties in a twist about where your tansau lies and start drifting into a debate about nothing imho, can either of you just answer my bloody question?!!

    I mean, it really isn't that hard. But considering some of the responses here I guess I can pretty well asume that there are very very few, if any, of you who have been taught methods like this.
    Do you think perhaps the reason you don't get answers to your questions is not due to the inexperience of posters here, but simply because they are silly questions?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Do you think perhaps the reason you don't get answers to your questions is not due to the inexperience of posters here, but simply because they are silly questions?
    No. But if that is the case, I would at least expect some silly answers from some!

    But you can do me a favour and explain to me why you think my questions, or this thread in particular is silly? Especially considering your severe lack of input so far.

    At least that is a start...
    Last edited by LoneTiger108; 04-27-2012 at 03:03 AM.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    But you can do me a favour and explain to me why you think my questions, or this thread in particular is silly? Especially considering your severe lack of input so far.
    Well, I guess it depends on your reason for training the Baatjaamdo set. Is it for tradition's sake or to enhance your self-defense abilities– and if the latter is it for modern day self-defense situations or for historical reenactment?

    For me, and I would presume most, there is 0% chance that I will find myself in a real confrontation where I have the butterfly knives holstered at my hip and need to worry about them being taken from me or how I should draw them.

    Instead what training the Baatjaamdo set provides is information on how to extend WC concepts and principles to weapon fighting. More than likely the case would be that what I use is a similar enough object, whether bladed or not, that I would pick up rather than "draw", and apply Baatjaamdo concepts with to defend myself.

    So there's my response to your second question. I'm not role playing and so don't need to worry about how to draw the blades. To your first- at that point I would prevent someone from taking it from me by chopping or whacking them with it.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Well, I guess it depends on your reason for training the Baatjaamdo set. Is it for tradition's sake or to enhance your self-defense abilities– and if the latter is it for modern day self-defense situations or for historical reenactment?
    I'm actually trying not to limit people to just the BJD set, as I have already mentioned, because there is little evidence in there of any scabbard/drawing principles at all. And if they are there, which has been suggested on this thread, they are pretty well 'hidden'.

    I will say this though, if all you do with your knives and poles is the 'form' sets, please move on to another thread because that to me is simply madness!

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    For me, and I would presume most, there is 0% chance that I will find myself in a real confrontation where I have the butterfly knives holstered at my hip and need to worry about them being taken from me or how I should draw them.
    This answer is oh so common in people that tend to not understand the reasons/benefits of equipment and weaponry practise. Let's say, I train on the wooden man daily for exercise knowing that it is helping me prepare my body for confrontation. But I shouldn't bother because I don't carry a wooden man with me on the street??

    My answer is this: my wooden man is WITH me, and my pole and knives are WITH me everywhere I go. This is a strong equipment based and weaponry system and they have massive importance. We are not Kara-te.

    So, I do not train this stuff for 'reenactments' or for 'preservation', although these are great reasons, I train this stuff because it is what we are. It is the culmination of all of this that makes Wing Chun what it is and if you decide for yourself not to immerse yourself in what this system as a whole has to offer because the reason you're offering, you will only ever lose out imho.

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    I'm not role playing and so don't need to worry about how to draw the blades. To your first- at that point I would prevent someone from taking it from me by chopping or whacking them with it.
    Interesting response to the drawing ideas. I will take your point and leave it there. Chopping (?) and whacking aggressors with your scabbard is definitely an idea to stop someone snatching your knives but I'm looking for people who have been taught such ideas within their Wing Chun learning.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Well, I guess it depends on your reason for training the Baatjaamdo set.
    Actually this has got me thinking (again! oh no!)

    I am more interesting in hearing from any one of you who have been 'taught', not those that have learnt from watching DVDs and such.

    I trained weaponry because it is what my Sifu specializes in and he taught it openly to those he chose. I had no 'choice' about it. It was offered to me, as I believe it should be, at the right time for the right reasons.

    If you have ever 'asked' to be taught the knives of Wing Chun, and it was entertained with ease (and possibly more money!) I would go back to what you were shown and question everything!!!
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    I'm actually trying not to limit people to just the BJD set, as I have already mentioned, because there is little evidence in there of any scabbard/drawing principles at all. And if they are there, which has been suggested on this thread, they are pretty well 'hidden'.

    I will say this though, if all you do with your knives and poles is the 'form' sets, please move on to another thread because that to me is simply madness!
    Well of course I meant much more by that. Just as the empty hand sets are a foundation of concepts and principles used in fighting, and not a limitation as to what you can or should do.

    Let's say, I train on the wooden man daily for exercise knowing that it is helping me prepare my body for confrontation. But I shouldn't bother because I don't carry a wooden man with me on the street??
    lol, That's a ridiculous equation. The dummy set teaches certain concepts and principles, as do the weapon sets. And they can be applied to any situation or object we get our hands on.

    This is what you mean when you say they are "always WITH you", correct?

    If you aren't at all likely to have the blades holstered on your hip when facing a threatening situation, then tell me what concept or principle of retention and drawing methods are they that are "always WITH you" and how you would apply them in a modern day confrontation where you don't actually have them.

    Chopping (?) and whacking aggressors with your scabbard is definitely an idea to stop someone snatching your knives but I'm looking for people who have been taught such ideas within their Wing Chun learning.
    lol, I was not talking about a scabbard but the object I picked up...

    So, I do not train this stuff for 'reenactments' or for 'preservation', although these are great reasons, I train this stuff because it is what we are. It is the culmination of all of this that makes Wing Chun what it is and if you decide for yourself not to immerse yourself in what this system as a whole has to offer because the reason you're offering, you will only ever lose out imho.
    So you do it for tradition then.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    lol, That's a ridiculous equation. The dummy set teaches certain concepts and principles, as do the weapon sets. And they can be applied to any situation or object we get our hands on.

    This is what you mean when you say they are "always WITH you", correct?
    Yes that is what I mean by having the dummy/blades/pole with me.

    Looking at how you describe what the 'dummy' set is for, have you learnt the set from a Sifu? I only ask because the set is not like SLT, where we are building habits in a neutral stance for the upper facing body. The 108 are actually sansau methods passed down in an easy-to-remember drill. They are in fact the excecution of your empty hand forms (according to my limited understanding) and they each have quite specific purpose fme.

    In other words, the wooden man assists in the expression of the empty hand forms in combat. This is a slow development, and you will not look like a book of pictures as I commonly see unfortunately. Your forms will come alive, so I can't see how that relates to what you say it is for. I may misunderstand you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    If you aren't at all likely to have the blades holstered on your hip when facing a threatening situation, then tell me what concept or principle of retention and drawing methods are they that are "always WITH you" and how you would apply them in a modern day confrontation where you don't actually have them.
    Okay, replace my scabbard with my wallet No matter what happens, I am not letting go of my wallet, so I will have evasive actions and body work that we destabilize you so it is out of reach at all times.

    Then, if I use the same drawing method with empty hands it will simply distract and possibly injure you a little depending on how and what it collides with.

    Sorry if that seems basic to you, but that's all I have been saying...

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    So you do it for tradition then.
    No. I do it because I always have had an interest in weaponry. I do it because I love Wing Chun and see how important the blades are to us. I do it because I was asked to by my Sifu.

    As far as tradition is concerned, if I was doing it for that I would in no way whatsoever be yapping about stuff like this on a public forum!!

    My traditional family values are still intact though.
    Last edited by LoneTiger108; 04-27-2012 at 08:57 AM.
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  12. #72
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    Smile

    n
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Right on. I was merely discussing differences and wasn't trying to "argue" with you as LongTiger108 thought. That being said;



    I know which clips you were talking about. Already explained the taansau on mukyanjong is done in such a way because of where the arms are in a fixed position and that they can't move. To further illustrate that point;

    Similarly at 1:14 in that clip there is a kwansau where the low bongsau hits the dummy's lower arm, and because it doesn't move like a person's leg would, the opportunity is taken to throw in a mansau to continue the flow of the sequence into the "air" kwansau with a kick.

    In actuality, from the leg block one would continue straight through with the kwansau and kick. But the dummy's arms don't move, so it's done differently than in application.

    Same thing with the taansau and many other actions throughout the set. It takes being taught not just seeing to understand. Have a look at his Siunimtau or end of Chamkiu and see where his taansau is and how it works.

    There are structurally better alternatives to guarding powerful high level hooks or angled punches, which I believe you've shown on your Youtube channel, such as biusau, laapsau, or even wusau.

    Speaking of wusau, in WSLVT it's not done at the face either. Just like taansau we ideally want to be on top of the opponent, to where it's difficult for them to get power back up. If catching a straight punch to the face with the outside of a wusau pulling it back to the face is where it will lead it. So we draw it down as we retract.



    At first mention he showed a super close range kick defense where you jam your arm down to the side (because you've turned the body). It doesn't extend out to the front or nearly as far as you said he did, or as you do it in your Siunimtau.

    After the 1:00 mark he begins showing the more likely application of the side action which is an escape from different types of armbars and locks.

    After the 4:00 mark he begins showing the more likely kick defense action, which is the one to the front not the side. It's the same movement as at the end of Chamkiu, as he showed.
    Actually the hand positions are relative to the gate covered. I have a clip some of me using a mid level tan. And it's good that we can discuss without arguing which isn't productive anyway.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    . . .

    There are structurally better alternatives to guarding powerful high level hooks or angled punches, which I believe you've shown on your Youtube channel, such as biusau, laapsau, or even wusau. . .
    What headshot (upper gate), techs or positions would you prefer? I'm always willing to add to my arsenal.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Looking at how you describe what the 'dummy' set is for, have you learnt the set from a Sifu? I only ask because the set is not like SLT, where we are building habits in a neutral stance for the upper facing body. The 108 are actually sansau methods passed down in an easy-to-remember drill. They are in fact the excecution of your empty hand forms (according to my limited understanding) and they each have quite specific purpose fme.

    In other words, the wooden man assists in the expression of the empty hand forms in combat. This is a slow development, and you will not look like a book of pictures as I commonly see unfortunately. Your forms will come alive, so I can't see how that relates to what you say it is for. I may misunderstand you.
    Yes, well at least in the WSLVT system that's not quite what it's about. 90% of what you need in fighting is covered in SNT and CK. According to WSL, the MYJ set is about "recovery". You've made minor mistakes or things haven't gone quite as planned and you need to recover your position. So the MYJ set provides certain concepts and principles for various less desirable outcomes or positions you might find yourself in. It differs from BJ in that regard as BJ is about survival in emergency situations. MYJ recovery is not quite as extreme. But it is not just a set of Saansau fight sequences. There are only one or two places where a technique is the obligatory following action to the previous.

    Okay, replace my scabbard with my wallet
    lol, No, don't do that. I was saying I don't need retention and drawing methods for an object similar enough to the WC blades, whether bladed or not, that I happen to pick up. At that point, having it already in my hand, I will keep someone from taking it by chopping or whacking them with it of course applying BJD methods to it.

    Then, if I use the same drawing method with empty hands it will simply distract and possibly injure you a little depending on how and what it collides with.
    So instead of using SNT & CK, you're going to attack empty handed by pretending to draw blades? o.0

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    . . .

    There are structurally better alternatives to guarding powerful high level hooks or angled punches, which I believe you've shown on your Youtube channel, such as biusau, laapsau, or even wusau. . .
    What headshot (upper gate), techs or positions would you prefer? I'm always willing to add to my arsenal.
    As I said, you've already shown them on your Youtube channel. Against round or overhand punches;

    Biusau, laapsau, and the like:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRC3a1RSk64
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxhZ6Iop1Y4

    Wusau
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3s2pxc6Tiw

    I would much prefer these to taansau. Especially up high like this, it's likely that the taansau structure won't stand up to it. Mainly because it allows the bicep (the muscle that retracts the arm) to activate. Having palm down turns off the bicep and activates the triceps (the muscle that extends the arm). So something like a biu, fuk/laap, or wu is going to be a structurally better alternative for guarding upper gate, imo. Taansau would be comfortable if the attack were a little lower so that I can gain the "upper" hand and not have it fold against a very strong opponent.

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