When Did Chi Sao Start?

[wolf3001]

I don't know who came up with it but I was looking into some Yuen Kay San Wing Chun and from what I have heard Yip Man learned Chi Sau here while living with the family. Yuen Kay San didn't really want to show him from what I understand.

[kuniggety]

They, although alowing some freestyle, are predominantly prearanged organized subsets,Like Lop Sao/ Bong Sao say.If there are VT type sensitivity/ exchange methods in these other arts, I'm looking for examples on the Tube. Please tune me in if you know of any. VT chi sao has a basically open ended format that alows for another level of humanity, instinct, nowness and X factor in the mix.

We use chi sao in my Northern Praying Mantis school and we had a sitting chi sao like exercise that we did while sitting when I was studying Aikikai Aikido. Both schools have used open ended chi sao, not "drills". Drills do exist, I've done them in Mantis, but we also do open ended chi sao where you have free reign to act as you feel (although we keep a stipulation not to hit people in the face). And then as I said, aside from the sitting part and staying connected, the we did chi sao in aikido too (it just had a different name). Sensitivity training is important in martial arts training and wing chun isn't the only one that has it.

[Happy Tiger]

We use chi sao in my Northern Praying Mantis school and we had a sitting chi sao like exercise that we did while sitting when I was studying Aikikai Aikido. Both schools have used open ended chi sao, not "drills". Drills do exist, I've done them in Mantis, but we also do open ended chi sao where you have free reign to act as you feel (although we keep a stipulation not to hit people in the face). And then as I said, aside from the sitting part and staying connected, the we did chi sao in aikido too (it just had a different name). Sensitivity training is important in martial arts training and wing chun isn't the only one that has it.

Thanks for your reply. Are there any clips on Youtube demoing these open ended platforms?

[Happy Tiger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYzKzABrt38
This is interesting. Would you say this is typical of chi sao in Mantis kung fu?How much time do you guys spend doing these kinds of exchange?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW2Y8...eature=related
Although this is a Hapkido school, we didn't do this kinda thing in the 70's . Still, nice to see VT influencing sensitivity training in other arts

[LoneTiger108]

VT chi sao has a basically open ended format that alows for another level of humanity, instinct, nowness and X factor in the mix. I guess this is the dimension I'm interested in most. I'ts like a life form that just jumped from one level of awareness to another. It is this jump I am geeking out over.

Personally, I think this 'jump' you are mentioning is with your language. This 'another level of humanity' too is best described as Sansau! NOT Chisau! Just my opinion, because I am a stickler for the language because it all MEANS something.

Once your 'interactive training' develops to the stage that it has no fixed pattern and both sides are comfortable exchanging with random methods/techniques it becomes akin to free-sparring ie. sansau/sanda and this is why, if you were to talk about language, that Chisau is NOT free sparring it's the precursor exercise drill because Sansau is the sparring Now some families use the term Gorsau too, but even this means something different to free-sparring. Free sparring attaches and detaches, there can be long periods with no contact. Gorsau has constant contact while moving over and through the bridges at all times.

So, it throws up questions like, so what is Looksau or Poonsau for exactly? What is Chisau for exactly?? And in all honesty, if your Sifu doesn't know the differences or has no interest in the language because of whatever reason, I personally would try my hardest to find someone that does! Even if that is ploughing through forums to find the conversations that point you in the right direction!!!

I definitely would not be looking at other styles for the answers, because it's a Wing Chun specific thing. Our language is tailored to our system and it was done so others wouldn't know what we were yapping about or shouting about during fights lol!! And FME I find difficulty communicating this stuff to fellow Wing Chun dudes because the language has never been thought about.

The analogy I use is 'the hands follow the mind so if the mind does not know it's purpose what do expect of the hands?' The minds purpose is given with the language you use to teach.

My rambling opinion as ever! And remember, I am a student too!!!

[Vajramusti]

I don't know who came up with it but I was looking into some Yuen Kay San Wing Chun and from what I have heard Yip Man learned Chi Sau here while living with the family. Yuen Kay San didn't really want to show him from what I understand.

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Stories!!

[kuniggety]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYzKzABrt38
This is interesting. Would you say this is typical of chi sao in Mantis kung fu?How much time do you guys spend doing these kinds of exchange?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW2Y8...eature=related
Although this is a Hapkido school, we didn't do this kinda thing in the 70's . Still, nice to see VT influencing sensitivity training in other arts

The first video is actually of a Southern Praying Mantis version. Funnily enough, Northern and Southern Praying Mantis are completely unrelated. I think the second video from the Hapkido school demonstrated a little better how we do chi sao. My school is a mixture of Seven Star and Taiji Praying Mantis and I'm not sure which line our chi sao decends from, if it's not prevalent in all of Northern Praying Mantis. It's an essential part of the training. Praying Mantis is about striking and grappling in a close range so chi sao is a great way to get a feel of an opponent in a relatively controlled way. Most of my mantis studies is private instruction and I only do it so much with him because IMO you only learn so much from it by doing it with the same person over and over. I think in the regular classes they do it extremely often. Back to aikido, we practiced our version of sticky hands in every class. It was something you had to show a basic grasp of for the very first belt test (since them Japanese styles like to use belts).

[Happy Tiger]

Personally, I think this 'jump' you are mentioning is with your language. This 'another level of humanity' too is best described as Sansau! NOT Chisau! Just my opinion, because I am a stickler for the language because it all MEANS something.

Once your 'interactive training' develops to the stage that it has no fixed pattern and both sides are comfortable exchanging with random methods/techniques it becomes akin to free-sparring ie. sansau/sanda and this is why, if you were to talk about language, that Chisau is NOT free sparring it's the precursor exercise drill because Sansau is the sparring Now some families use the term Gorsau too, but even this means something different to free-sparring. Free sparring attaches and detaches, there can be long periods with no contact. Gorsau has constant contact while moving over and through the bridges at all times.

So, it throws up questions like, so what is Looksau or Poonsau for exactly? What is Chisau for exactly?? And in all honesty, if your Sifu doesn't know the differences or has no interest in the language because of whatever reason, I personally would try my hardest to find someone that does! Even if that is ploughing through forums to find the conversations that point you in the right direction!!!

I definitely would not be looking at other styles for the answers, because it's a Wing Chun specific thing. Our language is tailored to our system and it was done so others wouldn't know what we were yapping about or shouting about during fights lol!! And FME I find difficulty communicating this stuff to fellow Wing Chun dudes because the language has never been thought about.

The analogy I use is 'the hands follow the mind so if the mind does not know it's purpose what do expect of the hands?' The minds purpose is given with the language you use to teach.

My rambling opinion as ever! And remember, I am a student too!!!

Well, that's why I don't always use traditional terms (though I know what they mean and are) for just the point you make. Different houses have different assignments to these terms. Gor sau, hows' about Kiu sau for that? Or is it San sau/Kiu Sau?Poon Sau or is it Don Sau?Jip Sau or Phon Sau?
Chi Sau is often reffered to as a "laboratory" of all things VT.(master Chu Sau Lei) which in it self brings it far over mere sensitivity training or drills. I originally was hoping for some kind of time line for the development of this high priority training tool. How it came to prominance in our style. Was it always the multityred, sophisticated thing it is today?It sounds like it is fairly recent in these reguards. I appreciate all the great responses. If my posts are some times alittle...romantic towards VT it's just because I'm a fan. But not an armchair fan fer sher.

[LoneTiger108]

Well, that's why I don't always use traditional terms (though I know what they mean and are) for just the point you make. Different houses have different assignments to these terms. Gor sau, hows' about Kiu sau for that? Or is it San sau/Kiu Sau?Poon Sau or is it Don Sau?Jip Sau or Phon Sau?

So you see what I mean?!

Have you actually been 'taught' the language in relation to exactly what it is? You say you know what they mean but this post suggests you may not or are you just throwing out questions?

This is where and how the more recent mainland promotions have the freedom to generate new interest. Because their language is present from the beginning, and they have confidence in using it to teach. Funny really, considering this is exactly how I learnt from the beginning yet I do not belong to one of the newer groups, I am simply a practitioner of Wing Chun.

It seems that us guys that like to study, and some that have been taught too, are resigned to sitting on the sidelines watching whilst many many people in the family leave and join other groups. I personally haven't got a problem with that, because all exposure to Wing Chun is fine with me. But how long will their interest last before it waivers again and is caught up with another 'new' marketing ploy?

Even if I were to tell you exactly when and how the modern Chisau platform was created, and by who, you wouldn't believe me and I doubt anyone else would either.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No one will ever admit to who created it because no one wants the responsibility for that !

[Happy Tiger]

So you see what I mean?!

Have you actually been 'taught' the language in relation to exactly what it is? You say you know what they mean but this post suggests you may not or are you just throwing out questions?

This is where and how the more recent mainland promotions have the freedom to generate new interest. Because their language is present from the beginning, and they have confidence in using it to teach. Funny really, considering this is exactly how I learnt from the beginning yet I do not belong to one of the newer groups, I am simply a practitioner of Wing Chun.

It seems that us guys that like to study, and some that have been taught too, are resigned to sitting on the sidelines watching whilst many many people in the family leave and join other groups. I personally haven't got a problem with that, because all exposure to Wing Chun is fine with me. But how long will their interest last before it waivers again and is caught up with another 'new' marketing ploy?

Even if I were to tell you exactly when and how the modern Chisau platform was created, and by who, you wouldn't believe me and I doubt anyone else would either.

I would really like to hear your theory. I was 'taught' pretty much everything I know in VT. As a member of the VTAA (Dec.25,'98) luckily, I've had some good training pretty close to source. (Masters; Wong Shun Leung ,Li Man Kit: Tsui Sheung Tin, Simon Ng/Leo Lit: Leung Ting, Wood Nan.)Getting the english equivalent to terms like gwoh sao and such has been more the challenge rather than the other way around. I just like to hear every ones theories and stories and advice to further my knowledge if not wisdom. Even though I trust my sifus completely, knowledge is where you find it and I love to dig in just like most do here. I try not to pass judgement often and respect all. I appreciate your detailed honest answers, and un like some, you take questions more or less at face value and don't patronise or condecend too much

[LoneTiger108]

I would really like to hear your theory.

You may well be the first!

I was 'taught' pretty much everything I know in VT. As a member of the VTAA (Dec.25,'98) luckily, I've had some good training pretty close to source. (Masters; Wong Shun Leung ,Li Man Kit: Tsui Sheung Tin, Simon Ng/Leo Lit: Leung Ting, Wood Nan.)

That actually sounds like a headache, knowing that even the Canton dialect has so many variations. It is a rich history you have there though, but I would only ask the straight forward question: So who IS your Sifu? Who do you consider to be the most influential?

Some people have a special place in their hearts for their first teacher, and so will always name them. But others have had bad experiences, so would sometimes erase the memories by denying they learnt from such and such.

I feel incredibly lucky to have just the one Wing Chun Sifu, and although I will exchange with others and continue to learn outside from his observation, I guess he will forever be my only Sifu. His dialect is from the country though (New territories) so it's also hard to match with others sometimes.

And don't mention the romanization of the lingo either man!!!!! That's a Pandoras Box if ever there was one!

[Happy Tiger]

You may well be the first!



That actually sounds like a headache, knowing that even the Canton dialect has so many variations. It is a rich history you have there though, but I would only ask the straight forward question: So who IS your Sifu? Who do you consider to be the most influential?

Some people have a special place in their hearts for their first teacher, and so will always name them. But others have had bad experiences, so would sometimes erase the memories by denying they learnt from such and such.

I feel incredibly lucky to have just the one Wing Chun Sifu, and although I will exchange with others and continue to learn outside from his observation, I guess he will forever be my only Sifu. His dialect is from the country though (New territories) so it's also hard to match with others sometimes.

And don't mention the romanization of the lingo either man!!!!! That's a Pandoras Box if ever there was one!

Sounds like you have a great sifu that you care about alot. >bows deeply<. Li Man Kit sifu is definitely my main teacher and biggest influence.A lesser known but no less talented VT master. He is a good teacher for me specifically, inspiring in many ways besides martial arts.All the sifu I've had the great privilage to learn from are unique and came into my life at just the right moment. Master Wood Nan is not only teacher but a personal friend of mine. His gentle soul and fierce fighting style is amazing .His habit of sharing VT with street people and other marginalized folk, to help start them on something worthwhile is a tradition I continue today.(the only 'teaching' I do at this point, at a community center downtown for free)
Masters Simon Ng and Leo Lit have radically altered my fundamental understanding of VT and their internal development is unbelievable. They are both gentle, hard working individuals that are also really inspiring.

[lance]

When was chi sao introduced \invented? Did VT come out of the temple already equipped with this unique tool, or was it added\developed later? Is there any story behind that?In it's day it must have been revolutionary. Tai chi is the only other art I know of that might have been rubbing elbows with the VT gang as an influence with it's tui sao. Is this an inspiration for chi sao?

To me it all started with the wing chun art itself , because you ' re using the wing chun hand techniques to touch hands with a partner . The main idea is to feel the partners' moves as you are rolling with your partner as all of you on this thread know already . The trick comes when you ' re rolling with your partners' energy when the right timing comes either you or your partner will hit and trap the partner at the same time .

Tai Chi has their own version of sensitivity training , but when it comes for the tai chi man to to do sensitivity drills with the wing chun man then I ' m sure that
they ' ll adapt to eachothers' energy drills .

[Vajramusti]

There are different kinds of chi sao but chi sao in one form or another is an integral part of wing chun.
Since chi sao is among other things a laboratory for working out concepts and principles, chi sao will vary with schools and lineages and their comparative understandings. Chi sao has also evolved over time..

joy chaudhuri