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Thread: Movement Science and Internal Power [Video]

  1. #1
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    Movement Science and Internal Power [Video]

    I've been trying to find this video for a while. It shows Taiji master Chen Xiang hooked up to all kind of fancy movement equipment at Stanford university:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN88QIsMHqA

    I think this kind of stuff could go a long way towards dispelling "internal" arts of mysticism. At its root, its really just about good body mechanics.

    EO

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    The mystic stuff is nonsense anyway.

    Rational thought is all that is required to see that there is no way to be anything more than simply a human being.

    I think we've moved beyond fairy tale antics and superstitious understanding. Those who haven't are on their own.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  3. #3
    Fight Science Kick Test (Capoeira, Karate, Muaythai & Taekwondo)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw4EoWi5QSM

    Sports Science: Kicking Power part 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KjZegbUxZo

    Fight Science - Qi Gong Tested
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEOSkqGUK-M

    National Geographic Documentary Myths Logic Of Shaolin Kung Fu full documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F4l3TdoELc
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  4. #4
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    Proper body mechanics is not internal power.

    Proper body mechanics just means you have good form and have been doing whatever it is you do for a while.

    That "Qi Gong Tested" vid had nothing to do with qi. It was just physical conditioning and proper application of body mechanics, the same as every other "qigong" demonstration ever. They only mentioned "qi" because they want to seem like that Asian dude is mystical because audiences eat that stuff up.
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  5. #5
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    So, when a trained athlete or even a performer does something it is "good mechanics" and skill but when someone professing to be an "internal Master" does the same thing it is qi?
    Interesting...
    So when a circus performer does a one finger handstand that is simply muscles and skill but when an "IMA" master does it, it is Qi ?
    When a performer takes hard shots to the body or even a canon ball, it is what exactly? because if they were wearing a shaolin robe and called themselves an "IMA" master we know it would be QI !
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    Proper body mechanics is not internal power.

    Proper body mechanics just means you have good form and have been doing whatever it is you do for a while.

    That "Qi Gong Tested" vid had nothing to do with qi. It was just physical conditioning and proper application of body mechanics, the same as every other "qigong" demonstration ever. They only mentioned "qi" because they want to seem like that Asian dude is mystical because audiences eat that stuff up.
    I only posted those for the science behind the movements and the body mechanics.

    I believe that the disconnect with what is internal power comes from ancient beliefs that define them vs modern definitions.

    Here is my example, have you ever heard the term he has "guts" what are they talking about? The intestines? Not really, "guts"=QI
    When an archer or a sharp shooter shoot or release an arrow do they not release their breath? Breath Control=QI
    When people get upset and they are told to breath and count to ten, doesn't it calm them slightly? This=QI
    When people in distress find "super human" strength within themselves to survive when in normal circumstances they wouldn't be able to accomplish such feats is it "fake"? This too = QI

    You can look at anything through a narrow scope and see only what you want to see or you can open you eyes and see the full picture
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by pateticorecords View Post
    Here is my example, have you ever heard the term he has "guts" what are they talking about? The intestines? Not really, "guts"=QI
    "Guts" isn't qi.

    "Guts" is intestinal fortitude (hence "guts") aka bravery/confidence.

    For example:

    "Do you have the guts to step into the ring against that champion boxer?"

    We all know what happens when "qi masters" step into the ring.

    When people in distress find "super human" strength within themselves to survive when in normal circumstances they wouldn't be able to accomplish such feats is it "fake"? This too = QI
    False.

    People in the situations you describe are using adrenaline and experiencing temporary central nervous system enhancements. It's not so much that they are getting stronger, but more that the body's natural safety systems are temporarily disabled, which is why they sometimes get injured in the process.

    Can a mother in crisis lift a car off of her child? Sometimes.

    Can her muscles, tendons, and ligaments tolerate the load? Probably not.

    Your CNS has safety measures in place that limit available strength and flexibility to ensure that you don't hurt yourself when you move around throughout the day. Your muscles are capable of significantly more tension than what your body allows you to use, but your body thinks it would injure itself if you did so, so it limits your available strength.

    Adrenaline released due to extreme situations can sometimes override these systems, hence people displaying random cases of "super human strength."

    You can look at anything through a narrow scope and see only what you want to see or you can open you eyes and see the full picture
    I prefer to use science.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    "Guts" isn't qi.

    "Guts" is intestinal fortitude (hence "guts") aka bravery/confidence.

    For example:

    "Do you have the guts to step into the ring against that champion boxer?"

    We all know what happens when "qi masters" step into the ring.



    False.

    People in the situations you describe are using adrenaline and experiencing temporary central nervous system enhancements. It's not so much that they are getting stronger, but more that the body's natural safety systems are temporarily disabled, which is why they sometimes get injured in the process.

    Can a mother in crisis lift a car off of her child? Sometimes.

    Can her muscles, tendons, and ligaments tolerate the load? Probably not.

    Your CNS has safety measures in place that limit available strength and flexibility to ensure that you don't hurt yourself when you move around throughout the day. Your muscles are capable of significantly more tension than what your body allows you to use, but your body thinks it would injure itself if you did so, so it limits your available strength.

    Adrenaline released due to extreme situations can sometimes override these systems, hence people displaying random cases of "super human strength."



    I prefer to use science.
    Still misunderstanding what I am saying here... what we scientifically call this or that the ancient cultures called something different that is all

    Guts also can be nerve, audacity, or arousing or involving basic emotions

    Some nice read on the so called strength related topic


    Campenella, B., Mattacola, C., Kimura, I. "Effect of visual feedback and verbal encouragement on concentric quadriceps and hamstrings peak torque of males and females." Isokinetics and Exercise Science. 1 Jan. 2000, Volume 8: 1-6.

    Extreme Fear: The Science of Your Mind in Danger by Jeff Wise


    Fabing, H. "On Going Berserk: A Neurochemical Inquiry." Scientific Monthly. 1 Nov. 1956, Volume 83: 232.

    Foote, P., Wilson, D. The Viking Achievement: The Society and Culture of Early Medieval Scandinavia. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1970. 285.

    Friedman, H., Silver, R. Foundations of Health Psychology. New York: Oxford University Press, 2007.

    Walker, A. "The Strength of Great Apes and the Speed of Humans." Current Anthropology. 1 Apr. 2009, Volume 50, Number 2: 229-234.
    Tom
    Integrated Kung Fu Academy
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  9. #9
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    None of that has anything to do with "internal power" and saying that "guts = qi" is categorically wrong.
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    "Guts" isn't qi.

    "Guts" is intestinal fortitude (hence "guts") aka bravery/confidence.

    For example:

    "Do you have the guts to step into the ring against that champion boxer?"

    We all know what happens when "qi masters" step into the ring.



    False.

    People in the situations you describe are using adrenaline and experiencing temporary central nervous system enhancements. It's not so much that they are getting stronger, but more that the body's natural safety systems are temporarily disabled, which is why they sometimes get injured in the process.

    Can a mother in crisis lift a car off of her child? Sometimes.

    Can her muscles, tendons, and ligaments tolerate the load? Probably not.

    Your CNS has safety measures in place that limit available strength and flexibility to ensure that you don't hurt yourself when you move around throughout the day. Your muscles are capable of significantly more tension than what your body allows you to use, but your body thinks it would injure itself if you did so, so it limits your available strength.

    Adrenaline released due to extreme situations can sometimes override these systems, hence people displaying random cases of "super human strength."



    I prefer to use science.
    This, FTW!!!!!!
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    I prefer to use science.
    You are insisting on an arbitrary definition of qi and then applauding yourself when you employ simple minded syllogisms to refute it.

    That's not anything remotely approaching science.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    You are insisting on an arbitrary definition of qi and then applauding yourself when you employ simple minded syllogisms to refute it.

    That's not anything remotely approaching science.
    So rather than making simple minded criticisms yourself, how about providing a more comprehensive definition of Qi for us all and demonstrate its effectiveness.

    If you can't or won't why post your un-necessary comment in the first place?

  13. #13
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    This entire concept has been in contravercy for a long time. For those that understand what Qi truely is, it is very difficult to explain it to those that refuse to acknowledge it. Not understanding, and refusing to attempt to understand it is where it is at this point.
    Qi, or Chi, is real. It is not some mythical power only certain masters possess, but it is the strength of every body. It is the engine that runs you. It is the power source of the human body. Your energy does not ride about on your skin, on the outside of your body. It generates within your body, and it has a central generation point. It fuels the body and gives you the power to move and operate. You can actually focus this strength as well. It is nothing that every human cannot do. You just have to understand how it is done, and it is very simple. The problem is that even though some actually use this, they deny it's very existance. They just do not understand what it is, and they simply refuse to try to understand it.
    If you did not possess this Qi, or Chi, you would fall into a limp pile of dead flesh.
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    The whole internal external thing needs to be dispelled. There is no difference between internal and external MA.

    But when it comes to Qi that is a different thing all together. One would have to have a good grasp of the Chinese language and culture and Chinese medicine to really understand the concept of the 'Qi' analogy. Qi is a scientific term, it is simply an ancient scientific term. Remember, 'Atom' is also an ancient scientific term who's definition has changed considerably through time. Qi is science from another culture. It doesn't describe anything magical, its just a different way of describing the human body as it is.

    Why Qi has become a laughable thing in MA is not the problem with the concept, but the problem with the people who claim to be QiGong Masters, and the problem with the people who believe them.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 05-08-2012 at 08:16 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
    This entire concept has been in contravercy for a long time. For those that understand what Qi truely is, it is very difficult to explain it to those that refuse to acknowledge it. Not understanding, and refusing to attempt to understand it is where it is at this point.
    Qi, or Chi, is real. It is not some mythical power only certain masters possess, but it is the strength of every body. It is the engine that runs you. It is the power source of the human body. Your energy does not ride about on your skin, on the outside of your body. It generates within your body, and it has a central generation point. It fuels the body and gives you the power to move and operate. You can actually focus this strength as well. It is nothing that every human cannot do. You just have to understand how it is done, and it is very simple. The problem is that even though some actually use this, they deny it's very existance. They just do not understand what it is, and they simply refuse to try to understand it.
    If you did not possess this Qi, or Chi, you would fall into a limp pile of dead flesh.
    If that is true, then like RenDaHai said, there is no difference between internal and external MA.
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

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