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Thread: Movement Science and Internal Power [Video]

  1. #16
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    And if there is no difference between internal and external MA, then what are those guys doing when they do "qi exercises" all day? Are they just wasting their time?

    We've already shown that every single "qi force internal energy" technique, as in like "hold on, I have to do these special exercises to charge up my qi first (implying that without doing them, my qi would not be in the right place and I would not be able to perform the skill)" are really only physical conditioning, proper application of body mechanics and, when the performers are especially snake oily, sleight of hand and stage tricks.

    Iron palm demos are either stage tricks (like breaking the brick on the edge of the step and lifting it slightly at the last second) or physical conditioning or body mechanics (smashing through a brick).

    Physical conditioning is impressive. I don't know why people need to insist it's mystical energy.

    Breaking the bottom brick is physics. You can do it with a hammer. In fact, there is a video of this on youtube. Hammers don't send qi through the top brick into the bottom brick. Anyone claiming they are breaking the bottom brick with qi is a snake oil salesman.

    Iron body demos are either stage tricks blamed on qi (in order to seem mystical), such as the spear in the throat, or they are physical conditioning and body mechanics, such as the large man flexing every muscle in his body as his assistant hits him in the stomach with a sledge hammer.

    Again, that type of conditioning is impressive. I don't know why people need to insist it's mystical energy that is protecting them when it really isn't. I can't take a sledgehammer blow to the stomach, can you? It's impressive. But it's not mystic qi internal energy.

    No touch knockout stuff is a bunch of nonsense. We've all seen the videos where no touch knockout guys fight resisting opponents rather than their own students.

    James Randi will give $1,000,000 to anyone who can do any of this stuff for real, and I believe there is also a guy in China who goes around disproving fakes.

    Maybe there is an internal energy force that flows through us all. Maybe it can be manipulated. I've done standing qigong. I've felt some weird things. But no one has ever conclusively demonstrated that it has any martial application whatsoever, because everyone who tries is deceiving the audience when they are really using physical conditioning and applied body mechanics.

    Internal guys: you don't get to say "qi is in everything therefore all arts are internal." The IMA community has specifically mentioned mystical qi power for decades. They want others to believe it but no one wants to prove it conclusively, however they don't mind using stage tricks to try and fool people into thinking it's real.

    Which is cooler? Saying "check this guy out, he can take a sledgehammer blow to the stomach," or saying "check this guy out, first he will do his qi exercises to build up his qi, he is focusing right now on moving his qi to his stomach where it will protect him from the blow" and having a guy do fancy movements and breathing techniques for a while so everyone thinks he is doing something mystical? Obviously the second one, because it makes people think you have mystic power. And guess what? That's how most people do it, because they are scam artists and are intentionally deceiving the audience.

    Standing in place for 30 minutes every day doesn't make you hit harder nor does it make you absorb blows better.

    Maybe somewhere along the line "qi" got mistranslated, but there is definitely a group of people who want the world to believe they have mystical power. Even some of the monks are in on this nonsense. I've seen them on History Channel shows.

    Shame on them. Monks are supposed to be all about truth, not snake oil.
    Last edited by IronFist; 05-08-2012 at 11:46 PM.
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  2. #17
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    When do we get to talk about Qi Balls?? Mine are killing me...
    "if its ok for shaolin wuseng to break his vow then its ok for me to sneak behind your house at 3 in the morning and bang your dog if buddha is in your heart then its ok"-Bawang

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  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    None of that has anything to do with "internal power" and saying that "guts = qi" is categorically wrong.
    Oh, just because this is what you believe it makes it irrefutable, correct? Not much different than those that believe in "internal power" or scientific theories that have been proven wrong yet the scientific establishment will fight it tooth and nail because what they thought they knew is not.

    But then again my friend you are not understanding what I am saying, I am on the same page as you to certain extent... I don't believe in Qi projection, harnessing Qi to damage your opponent, or using Qi to receive blows or break things...blah blah blah... that is suggestive in nature not much different than religious people that believe in something and fall into trances and what not.

    The concept of Qi reaches further than just the "magic" or the paranormal side of it. It was utilize to explain many physiological functions and expressions of the body, it was all encompassing.

    I will use a different example, in ancient times materials that ignited and caused explosions were considered "magic", but in reality it was science not magic. Others worshiped the sun because it gave life, not knowing the science behind it.

    All I am trying to say it that they called it one thing and we know call it many different things, why? because we have science and methods to prove things that couldn't be proven before.

    One last thing, You can only believe purely in science when all theories are LAWS, not theories. Until then, science is just like religion
    Last edited by pateticorecords; 05-09-2012 at 04:22 AM.
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  4. #19
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    @Iron fist

    I agree that we should not split MA along the lines of Internal and external.

    But there is some division between the types of MA in China. It has become External and internal recently, but it has been split on all the wrong ideas.

    In old terms there were 3 typical types of Chinese Martial Arts. Military, Civilian and Spiritual. Civilian arts were for general fighting and for police and for health. Military arts were to kill the opponent as swiftly as possible and for nothing else. Spiritual Martial arts were much more complex and contained techniques from the others but the goal of training was different.

    I think what is confusing you is this 'spiritual' martial art. The goal of training is self knowledge and wisdom. QiGong is to help with deep meditation and introspection. The QiGong aspect is to help with meditation not with the combat. That wierd feeling you got while standing, that is what these people are doing all day when they practice QiGong. That is the higher goal than combat for them. If you are training a military MA then there is no need for QiGong on the outset. However the warrior and his spirituality are intimately linked within most societies.

    When introspecting and meditating it is useful to have some system of logic like Qi which describes the connection between the mind and the body.

    SongShan Shaolin is the perfect example of the spiritual MA. XuanWu Wudang is also. Xing yi is a military Martial art. To call Shaolin external and XingYi internal as people do these days is frankly ridiculous.

  5. #20
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    This is like a monthly thing for you huh, IF?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    So rather than making simple minded criticisms yourself, how about providing a more comprehensive definition of Qi for us all and demonstrate its effectiveness.

    If you can't or won't why post your un-necessary comment in the first place?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negentropy


  7. #22
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    If there is a distinction to be made in MA it should be:
    Fighting systems
    Non-fighting systems

    The whole "Qi" thing is just silly really, if people want to believe there is some "inner power" that they are cultivating that will make them uber-men, that's their problem.
    The proof of any system or any practitioner of a MA is in the pudding and the pudding is spelled F I G H T.
    Of course is a person is practicing a non-combative style or MA or even a combative one but for non-combative purposes then they can claim whatever they want OTHER than being "combative".
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pateticorecords View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    None of that has anything to do with "internal power" and saying that "guts = qi" is categorically wrong.
    Oh, just because this is what you believe it makes it irrefutable, correct?
    It has nothing to do what what I believe and has everything to do with the definition of "guts" as you used it:



    Source:
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guts?s=t

    It has nothing to do with qi, internal energy, or anything mystical at all. It is simply slang for "courage."

    (granted, I will admit that some qigong guys have courage -- especially the no touch knockout guys who step into the ring with real fighters)

    The concept of Qi reaches further than just the "magic" or the paranormal side of it. It was utilize to explain many physiological functions and expressions of the body, it was all encompassing.

    I will use a different example, in ancient times materials that ignited and caused explosions were considered "magic", but in reality it was science not magic. Others worshiped the sun because it gave life, not knowing the science behind it.
    Give a conclusive example or demonstration of qi in a martial context. It needs to be something that is possibly only because of specific qi training that cannot be replicated by proper body mechanics and physical conditioning, nor by someone who has not done any qigong training.

    Iron palm is not.

    Breaking the bottom brick is not.

    Iron body is not.

    What is?
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    If there is a distinction to be made in MA it should be:
    Fighting systems
    Non-fighting systems
    That may be a better classification.

    But what about the fighting systems that spend time doing qi stuff? Like a Hung Gar school or something. That's a pretty "external" fighting style, yet they have the iron wire form which I believe is for qi development.

    The whole "Qi" thing is just silly really, if people want to believe there is some "inner power" that they are cultivating that will make them uber-men, that's their problem.
    The proof of any system or any practitioner of a MA is in the pudding and the pudding is spelled F I G H T.
    Of course is a person is practicing a non-combative style or MA or even a combative one but for non-combative purposes then they can claim whatever they want OTHER than being "combative".
    Agreed.

    Again, I'm not saying qi isn't real. I'm just saying it has never been shown to have an application in a martial context.

    Maybe qigong can improve health, reduce stress, and make you feel more alive. That's a subjective experience for the most part, and if someone says doing qigong every day makes them feel better, I'm not going to argue with them, and I would encourage them to keep doing it. But it cannot make you withstand blows or put more power in your strikes or break the bottom brick because you are shooting qi through the top brick into the bottom brick.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    That may be a better classification.

    But what about the fighting systems that spend time doing qi stuff? Like a Hung Gar school or something. That's a pretty "external" fighting style, yet they have the iron wire form which I believe is for qi development.



    Agreed.

    Again, I'm not saying qi isn't real. I'm just saying it has never been shown to have an application in a martial context.

    Maybe qigong can improve health, reduce stress, and make you feel more alive. That's a subjective experience for the most part, and if someone says doing qigong every day makes them feel better, I'm not going to argue with them, and I would encourage them to keep doing it. But it cannot make you withstand blows or put more power in your strikes or break the bottom brick because you are shooting qi through the top brick into the bottom brick.
    IF Qi is NOT "physics and body mechanics" then ANYTHING that can be explained and'or duplicated VIA physics and body mechanics is NOT Qi.
    So, in that regards, everything that we see demoed as qi is NOT qi.

    The very real and quantifiable benefits of the IW form in Hung ga have nothing to do with "qi".
    See the above "qualifier".
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShaolinDan View Post
    This is like a monthly thing for you huh, IF?
    That reminds me, I need to pick up some Tampax.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    But it cannot make you withstand blows or put more power in your strikes or break the bottom brick because you are shooting qi through the top brick into the bottom brick.
    As many of us have been trying to explain to you repeatedly, this is not the only definition of Qi.

    Qi is not a singular thing, it is a fluid, nebulous metaphor the definition of which is still being debated. It can operate as a metaphor for physiological phenomena or as a Cosmological hypothesis. Or as in your experience, a way for Star Wars cosplayers to scam potential Rice Bowls.

    In ancient times it was a relatively effective way of explaining things considering that the Chinese were treating diabetes and hypothyroidism while in the west going to the doctor meant going to get your hair cut.

    For instance consider the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems. One controls the fight or flight response, the other the relaxation response. What is a binary metaphorical framework I could use if I observed physiological effects of these systems but lacked the vocabulary of empirical neuro-endocrinology? Something that represents the interplay of opposites?

    In Shuai Jiao (most of the limp wristed Internal Power crowd would probably deride Shuai Jiao as an external martial art) my Coach talks about Qi all the time, all he means is having the energy to do something. If you're gassed out and can't muster the bofali (explosiveness) to pull a move off it is because you have depleted Qi. Or even more importantly, having the ability to issue explosive force despite being gassed out. After high intensity drills, controlling your Qi is just consciously working to bring your heart rate and breathing down to baseline. A native Chinese SJ Coach refers to Qi in a manner that can be described as an expression of stamina, which incidentally was listed as part of the informal definition of "guts". Even in Shaolin practice, when my coach talks about Qi, it's often just as an expression of explosiveness.

    The bifurcation between external and internal is a modern invention and the idea that Qi is the Force is for Rice Bowls. You would be surprised how many people actually don't think that Qi = The Force.

    As far as Iron Palm conditioning is concerned I would actually be more interested in Qi as an expression of the intent to condition the hands in such a way.

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    IF Qi is NOT "physics and body mechanics" then ANYTHING that can be explained and'or duplicated VIA physics and body mechanics is NOT Qi.
    So, in that regards, everything that we see demoed as qi is NOT qi.

    The very real and quantifiable benefits of the IW form in Hung ga have nothing to do with "qi".
    See the above "qualifier".
    Qigong, Iron Wire, Yoga. They are just forms of exercise.

  12. #27
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    a "non-fighting" system doesn't merit being called martial. It is exercise. Any exercise will enhance martial ability to some degree.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    a "non-fighting" system doesn't merit being called martial. It is exercise. Any exercise will enhance martial ability to some degree.
    Granted but the harsh reality is that far too many MA have become just that, non-combative.
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  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    So rather than making simple minded criticisms yourself, how about providing a more comprehensive definition of Qi for us all and demonstrate its effectiveness.
    here's my favorite, from Ted Kaptchuk, OMD, and I am inclined to take his perspective on it...
    "Qi is not some primordial, immutable material, nor is it merely vital energy, although the word is occasionally so translated. Chinese thought does not easily distinguish between matter and energy. We might think that Qi is somewhere in between, a kind of matter on the verge of becoming energy, or energy at the point of materializing."
    ...
    "Qi is the thread connecting all being. Qi is the common denominator of all things- from mineral to human...Qi is the fundamental quality of being and becoming."
    ...
    "Qi is the universe's underlying plastic texture that explains change, the inexhaustible ink of the world...Qi is the cause, process, and outcome of all activity in the cosmos. Qi is the ceaseless throbbing, the substratum of the cosmos."
    it's essentially a description of some underlying, universal functional principle, a means by which this principle can be contextualized and applied to things such as health, environment, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    But when it comes to Qi that is a different thing all together. One would have to have a good grasp of the Chinese language and culture and Chinese medicine to really understand the concept of the 'Qi' analogy. Qi is a scientific term, it is simply an ancient scientific term. Remember, 'Atom' is also an ancient scientific term who's definition has changed considerably through time. Qi is science from another culture. It doesn't describe anything magical, its just a different way of describing the human body as it is.
    it's not, in the strictest sense, "scientific", insofar as relates to "scientific method"; in essence, while it is empirical, it is not objective, meaning that it's a qualitative assessment of a given entities state of being (e.g. - a person, but could also be a mountain range, the weather or a plate of food); it's metaphorical: it uses imagery to talk about function and interaction of macro-observable physiological processes;

    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    I've done standing qigong. I've felt some weird things.
    welcome to the experience of your autonomic nervous system...

    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Qi is not a singular thing, it is a fluid, nebulous metaphor the definition of which is still being debated. It can operate as a metaphor for physiological phenomena or as a Cosmological hypothesis.

    In ancient times it was a relatively effective way of explaining things considering that the Chinese were treating diabetes and hypothyroidism while in the west going to the doctor meant going to get your hair cut.

    For instance consider the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems. One controls the fight or flight response, the other the relaxation response. What is a binary metaphorical framework I could use if I observed physiological effects of these systems but lacked the vocabulary of empirical neuro-endocrinology? Something that represents the interplay of opposites?
    THIS!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    it's essentially a description of some underlying, universal functional principle, a means by which this principle can be contextualized and applied to things such as health, environment, etc.
    NEW LAWS TO BE EXPECTED IN THE ORGANISM

    What I wish to make clear in this last chapter is, in short, that from all we have learnt about the structure of living matter, we must be prepared to find it working in a manner that cannot be reduced to the ordinary laws of physics. And that not on the ground that there is any 'new force' or what not, directing the behaviour of the single atoms within a living organism, but because the construction is different from a anything we have yet tested in the physical laboratory. To put it crudely, an engineer, familiar with heat engines only, will, after inspecting the construction of an electric motor, be prepared to find it working along principles which he does not yet understand. He finds the copper familiar to him in kettles used here in the form of long, wires wound in coils; the iron familiar to him in levers and bars and steam cylinders here filling the interior of those coils of copper wire. He will be convinced that it is the same copper and the same iron, subject to the same laws of Nature, and he is right in that. The difference in construction is enough to prepare him for an entirely different way of functioning. He will not suspect that an electric motor is driven by a ghost because it is set spinning by the turn of a switch, without boiler and steam. If a man never contradicts himself, the reason must be that he virtually never says anything at all.

    REVIEWING THE BIOLOGICAL SITUATION

    The unfolding of events in the life cycle of an organism exhibits an admirable regularity and orderliness, unrivalled by anything we meet with in inanimate matter. We find it controlled by a supremely well-ordered group of atoms, which represent only a very small fraction of the sum total in every cell. Moreover, from the view we have formed of the mechanism of mutation we conclude that the dislocation of just a few atoms within the group of 'governing atoms' of the germ cell suffices to bring about a well-defined change in the large-scale hereditary characteristics of the organism. These facts are easily the most interesting that science has revealed in our day. We may be inclined to find them, after all, not wholly unacceptable. An organism's astonishing gift of concentrating a 'stream of order' on itself and thus escaping that the decay into atomic chaos -of 'drinking orderliness' from a suitable environment –seems to be connected with the presence of the 'aperiodic solids', the chromosome molecules, which doubtless represent the highest degree of well-ordered atomic association we know of - much higher than the ordinary periodic crystal - in virtue of the individual role every atom and every radical is playing here. To put it briefly, we witness the event that existing order displays the power of maintaining itself and of producing orderly events. That sounds plausible enough, though in finding it plausible we, no doubt, draw on experience concerning social organization and other events which involve the activity of organisms. And so it might seem that something like a vicious circle is implied.

    TWO WAYS OF PRODUCING ORDERLINESS

    The orderliness encountered in the unfolding of life springs from a different source. It appears that there are two different 'mechanisms' by which orderly events can be produced: the 'statistical mechanism' which produces order from disorder and the new one, producing order from order. To the unprejudiced mind the second principle appears to be much simpler, much more plausible. No a doubt it is. That is why physicists were so proud to have fallen in with the other one, the 'order-from-disorder' principle, which is actually followed in Nature and which alone conveys an understanding of the great line of natural events, in the first place of their irreversibility. But we cannot expect that the 'laws of physics' derived from it suffice straightaway to explain the behaviour of living matter, whose most striking features are visibly based to a large extent on the 'order-fromorder'
    principle. You would not expect two entirely different mechanisms to bring about the same type of law -you would not expect your latch-key, to open your neighbour's door as well.We must therefore not be discouraged by the difficulty of interpreting life by the ordinary laws of physics. For that is just what is to be expected from the knowledge we have gained of the structure of living matter. We must be prepared to find a new type of physical law prevailing in it. Or are we to term it a non-physical, not to say a super-physical, law?
    ...living matter, while not eluding the "laws of physics" as established up to date, is likely to involve "other laws of physics" hitherto unknown, which however, once they have been revealed, will form just as integral a part of science as the former.
    -Erwin Schrodinger


    http://whatislife.stanford.edu/LoCo_...at-is-Life.pdf

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_Life%3F

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