What does "internal" mean to you?

[IronFist]

I think a lot of the confusion we've been having on the forums is because people have different definitions of what "internal" means.

So let's discuss what "internal" means.

Not "what should it mean" or "what would a better definition be," but when you hear "internal" in reference to martial arts, what does it mean to you?

Here are some examples of the word "internal" in reference to martial arts:

- Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi are internal arts
- The man was practicing internal iron palm
- This form has an internal component
- This technique develops internal strength


Here is a more complete definition of the "having to do with qi" poll choice. I am confident that most people know what I mean, but a few people are going to try and play "it depends on what your definition of 'is' is" with it, so this clarification is necessary:

Having to do with qi - "Qi" as in "mystical force," specifically being different than doing the same movement without the "internal" component. For example, an external palm strike vs. an "internal" palm strike where you consciously direct qi into your hand to change the effect of the strike. Or any movement or technique that is somehow made different by the manipulation of qi in the movement, compared to performing the same movement with the same form, structure, and breath patterns, but without modification by qi.



To me, "internal" has a distinct reference to "qi."

And wikipedia agrees with me:

Nèijiā (Chinese: 內家; literally "internal school") is a term in Chinese martial arts, grouping those styles that practice nèijìng (Chinese: 內勁; literally "internal strength"), usually translated as internal martial arts, occupied with spiritual, mental or qi-related aspects, as opposed to an "external" (Chinese: 外; pinyin: wài) approach focused on physiological aspects. The distinction dates to the 17th century, but its modern application is due to publications by Sun Lutang, dating to the period of 1915 to 1928. Nèijìng is developed by using "nèigōng" (內功), or "internal exercises," as opposed to "wàigōng" (外功), "external exercises."

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neijia

Proper breathing and proper structure may be necessary in order to manipulate the mystic energy of qi, but proper breathing and proper structure alone do not make something internal.

For example, I have good form when I bench press. And I breathe correctly, exhaling as I press the weight up. Does that mean I bench press internally? Of course not. It just means I know how to bench press with correct technique. It is still an external bench press.

If I were to bench press with incorrect form, such as rounding my shoulders and inhaling while I press the weight up, that would still be an external bench press; just one done with incorrect form.

Now, if I were to summon my qi and use that to lift the bar, quantifiably different than just using my muscles like a normal person, then that would be an internal bench press.

After you vote in the poll, answer this question if you want:

How is an "internal" art or technique different than an "external" art or technique?

My answer: "internal" means modified by qi. An "internal" punch is a punch in which qi is moved into the fist to change the effect of the strike. An "internal" martial art is an art that focuses on the development and use of qi power in a martial context. An "external" punch is a punch without modification by qi, eg., how a boxer punches. An "external" art is an art that does not train or manipulate qi power, for example, boxing, Muay Thai, or playing guitar. Boxing with correct form is still external boxing. Playing guitar at a master level without thinking about the notes you are going to play is still external guitar playing, it's just unconscious competence. It's good "kung fu."

What does "internal" mean do you?

[ShaolinDan]

To me internal has to do with a way of approaching all of the above points. Internal is a path, not an end. It means to work from the inside out instead of the outside in. It's just a concept whose meaning is relative to its context.

[taai gihk yahn]

having done both, so-called internal and external, IMPE, internal is where one is concerned w the subjective quality of one's movement rather than with the outwards manifestation; so when doing the taiji form, it's less important that one "looks" a certain way then it is for one to "feel" a certain way - the connection of movement from one to another, the subjective sensations of tension in the body, etc.; meaning it's not about conforming to an external set of criteria (lining up the hand precisely w a given body part), but rather that, by feeling the internal relationships, one will necessarily achieve "correct" alignment - of course, this can be aided by an external feedback loop of watching the teacher or being positioned in proper alignment, but these are just training wheels to get to an internally driven sense of "correct" function;

it also relates to what drives the movement / the point from where movement originates; for example, when starting the taiji form, at what point does one begin to raise one's hands, that is, what is the "internal" cue from the body that generates the raising?

when one practices internal, one learns to "listen" to the feelings / rhythms of the body which then informs the context and quality of the movement; this is not some mystical qualification: I am talking about attuning one's proprioception to things like ground reaction force in response to movement (including respiratory biomechanics), having a sense regarding the relationship of fluidic movement in the body (arterial, venous, lymphatic), having an awareness of non-contractile connective tissue during movement of body segments relative to each other and to tensional relationships in total; being able to engage a robust parasympathetic response "at will"; of course, u find this in other disicplines in various ways - yogic asana and pranayama practice is one example of "internal" practice, IMPO;

[SPJ]

For me, it is all in perspective.

We may examine or look at things from outside in.

Or inside out.

Peace out.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think it might apply to most of the above in some way or another. In your description of bench pressing, you spoke of breathing and the way you exhale on the lift. Well, that is the internal aspect of bench pressing. The act of doing so mechanically is external, but you do the exhale to focus your energy and strength into the lift whereby the abdomen constricts. Chi or Qi is so simple a thing, but it is probably the most misunderstood aspect of what we do. It is not some mystical power or energy that can be directed at an enemy so as to strike him without touching him. That is BS and impossible to do. Until people get that out of their heads they will never understand it.
About 35 years ago I worked in a print shop running an old platten press. The chase, the part where you lock up the type and such, must have weighed about 75 pounds and was held in by a steel lever that was also spring loaded. I ran a particular press for a long time, then one day I was moved to another one. Everyone used a roll bar to pry the lever up to release or lock up the chase, but I used the heel of my right palm to tap it up just enough to release it. Well, that day I walked over to the press to lock up the chase on my first run and when I tapped it with my palm heel It broke off and shot up through the ceiling and came back down about 15 feet over across the room. It popped like a rifle shot. The thing was that it was adjusted with a shorter throw then my press and it bottomed out while I was applying the tap. I was putting enough power into the tap to have cause a lot of damage to a person had I applied it to him, but it took me and those around me by surprise. I had been doing this for so long that I had developed a strong Qi stroke. I can stand and wave my hands at you all day and you will not feel a thing, but if I were to punch you there would be a flood of emotions.

[IronFist]

I think it might apply to most of the above in some way or another. In your description of bench pressing, you spoke of breathing and the way you exhale on the lift. Well, that is the internal aspect of bench pressing. The act of doing so mechanically is external, but you do the exhale to focus your energy and strength into the lift whereby the abdomen constricts.

Strongly disagree. There is no "internal" aspect of bench pressing. It uses a proper form and breath control, but since there is no qi component, there is no internal aspect. IMO, of course.

So in your opinion, what is the distinction between "internal" and "external" martial arts? If proper form and breathing is all it takes to make something "internal," then in Western boxing internal? What about shotokan karate, or savate?

And, would you then argue that Taiji, Bagua, and HsingYi are no more "internal" than Wing Chun or Western boxing? After all, both have specific form and breathing techniques.

[IronFist]

You guys (not LCP) are giving vague answers and then not explaining the difference between an "internal" and "external" martial art and how it fits into your definition of "internal".

[taai gihk yahn]

You guys (not LCP) are giving vague answers and then not explaining the difference between an "internal" and "external" martial art and how it fits into your definition of "internal".

how is what I described vague?

I gave u my direct experience of internal practice as compared to external, even providing a physiological correlate;

it may not b the definition u like, but it appears that u also seem to think that "qi" is not involved in so-called external practice, which frankly makes no real sense, seeing as u can't have any movement at all without "qi" being involved; of course, internal works with "qi" differently than external, but they both have it - it's just a matter of what u r focusing on: so if I am trianing stances in "external" practice, it's basically isometric work; when I train standing for internal, I am looking for something very different, specifically, the degree to which I can have a detailed expereince regarding how I can feel my postural system organizing in gravity - it's building inner awareness; and from this awareness, u move in a way that when u don't have this awareness, you don't; if u have experienced this qualitative difference, then u know what I am taking about; if u haven't, then u don't;

[YouKnowWho]

Taiji was my 1st style. I learned it when I was 7 years old. At that time, I didn't know anything about "external". To me, "internal" is just the right way to do thing. Even today, when people mention, "tense", "brute force", ... I still don't know what they are talking about. To me, "Sung (soft)" and "borrow force" are just "common sense" and there is nothing worth to talke about it.

I hate people who talks about "internal" this and "internal" that. It's just like bread and butter. You will never brag about how good bread and butter tasted.

[pazman]

Internal and external are false dichotomies.

Not answering poll.

[bawang]

You guys (not LCP) are giving vague answers and then not explaining the difference between an "internal" and "external" martial art and how it fits into your definition of "internal".

taijiquan has a lot of defensive versions of northern techniques. most northern martial arts have some defensive techniques but not as much as taijiquan.

[David Jamieson]

having done both, so-called internal and external, IMPE, internal is where one is concerned w the subjective quality of one's movement rather than with the outwards manifestation; so when doing the taiji form, it's less important that one "looks" a certain way then it is for one to "feel" a certain way - the connection of movement from one to another, the subjective sensations of tension in the body, etc.; meaning it's not about conforming to an external set of criteria (lining up the hand precisely w a given body part), but rather that, by feeling the internal relationships, one will necessarily achieve "correct" alignment - of course, this can be aided by an external feedback loop of watching the teacher or being positioned in proper alignment, but these are just training wheels to get to an internally driven sense of "correct" function;

it also relates to what drives the movement / the point from where movement originates; for example, when starting the taiji form, at what point does one begin to raise one's hands, that is, what is the "internal" cue from the body that generates the raising?

when one practices internal, one learns to "listen" to the feelings / rhythms of the body which then informs the context and quality of the movement; this is not some mystical qualification: I am talking about attuning one's proprioception to things like ground reaction force in response to movement (including respiratory biomechanics), having a sense regarding the relationship of fluidic movement in the body (arterial, venous, lymphatic), having an awareness of non-contractile connective tissue during movement of body segments relative to each other and to tensional relationships in total; being able to engage a robust parasympathetic response "at will"; of course, u find this in other disicplines in various ways - yogic asana and pranayama practice is one example of "internal" practice, IMPO;

^ This. I concur with this.

He's smart eh?

wordy bugger too...

[David Jamieson]

You guys (not LCP) are giving vague answers and then not explaining the difference between an "internal" and "external" martial art and how it fits into your definition of "internal".

internal= fine tuning the qualities of motion through perception of the minutia and manipulation and regulation of same through continued practice.

external = the resulting structure & expressed forces from the structure, which in turn is the release platform for the kinetic force generated by the platform.

This is a very basic model of it, for more depth, refer to TGY's statement.

I would add from a personal perspective that you cannot do all this without unity of being. For me, I view it more holistically and see it as a fully functioning thing. But when studying and developing the machine as you live your life, you have to visit smaller chunks of learning.

It get's broken down into categories of work required to produce a result desired. Some of that work is muscle building and bone density creation. Some of it is how you step and the rhythm of breathing that best facilitates that motion or immobility. And so on through a huge selection of exercises that are used for building and maintaining the machine that is you.

[wenshu]

Internal and external are false dichotomies.

Not answering poll.

Stop being vague.

[ShaolinDan]

There's no way to talk about internal without being vague. It's metaphorical/allegorical concept, not a thing. Like the Chinese notion of hard/soft. Or Yin/yang. Their vagueness is what allows them to be universal--it's poetic.

By Me:
To me internal has to do with a way of approaching all of the above points. Internal is a path, not an end. It means to work from the inside out instead of the outside in. It's just a concept whose meaning is relative to its context.

For me, it is all in perspective.

We may examine or look at things from outside in.

Or inside out.

Peace out.