View Poll Results: What does "internal" mean to you?

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  • Having to do with qi (see clarification in post)

    7 35.00%
  • Having to do with having proper form/structure

    4 20.00%
  • Having to do with breath, or having proper breathing/breath

    2 10.00%
  • Both structure and breath

    6 30.00%
  • Having to do with being alive (as opposed to being dead)

    1 5.00%
  • Having to do with one's mental state (eg. "being in the zone")

    0 0%
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Thread: What does "internal" mean to you?

  1. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    I'll agree with this 100%.

    You can replace "fight" with "training against a resisting opponent" and it's still true.

    Just so long as you're not doing a 10 hit combo against someone who left their arm extended after they threw a punch that wasn't going to hit you even if you didn't block it.
    Nope. A "resisting opponent" is still training.... not fighting.
    One of these days the world is going to become so politically correct that it will scare itself out of existence.

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  2. #197
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    We must have different opinions about what a "resisting opponent" is.
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

    <BombScare> i beat the internet
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  3. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    We must have different opinions about what a "resisting opponent" is.
    Doubtful. But I'm QUITE SURE we have different opinions about what fighting is..
    One of these days the world is going to become so politically correct that it will scare itself out of existence.

    MP 2007

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    We must have different opinions about what a "resisting opponent" is.
    IronFist,

    Its likely that Mr. Patterson has been training for close to as long as you have been alive. Maybe its best not to assume you are a peer?

    On a side note, since you mention tendon based movement as a fallacy from time to time:

    http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/tend...gth-training-7

    "Interestingly, research using electromyography as an indicator of calf muscle activity during running shows that the calf muscles are very active during the dorsiflexion phase and not active during the plantarflexion phase. This is contrary to what you might expect, as the theoretical role of the calf muscles is to contract concentrically (shorten) when the ankle plantarflexes. So how can the ankle plantarflex without any activity from the calf muscle? The answer is that the Achilles tendon is stretched during the dorsiflexion phase of the ankle movement, and the elastic energy stored during stretching is then released when the Achilles shortens. During running, the role of the calf muscle is to control the movement of the ankle with an eccentric (lengthening) contraction during the dorsiflexion (shock absorbing) phase, while the role of the Achilles tendon is to release energy while it shortens to plantarflex the ankle and push off the ground."

    There are several arts that use the muscles, gravity, and/or the opponent's force to load the connective tissues as a spring like unit. The resulting release of force is in large then performed by the tendons and connective tissue like a spring as the loading force is removed. This is a different method of generating force both in feel and method than simply engaging the muscles to contract and move the frame themselves (which will use some tendon elasticity as well, but with different emphasis).
    -Golden Arms-

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    Bridging is when your forearms are touching.
    It should be much early than that. The

    - arm bridging start when your hand touch your opponent's wrist.
    - leg bridging start when your shin bone bite into your opponent's leg.

    There are 3 gates in arm bridging:

    1st gate - hand touch wrist,
    2nd gate - forearm touch forearm,
    3rd gate- forearm touch upper arm (arm wrap), shoulder (overhook, underhook), neck (head lock), waist (bear hug, waist surround), ...

    When you have arrived the 2nd gate (your hand pass your opponent's wrist), you are already in "clinching".
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-16-2012 at 05:26 PM.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Patterson View Post
    Doubtful. But I'm QUITE SURE we have different opinions about what fighting is..
    Ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Arms View Post
    IronFist,

    Its likely that Mr. Patterson has been training for close to as long as you have been alive. Maybe its best not to assume you are a peer?
    Vids of Mr. Patterson fighting? With the way everyone here is continually deferring to him, I assume he's some supreme grandmaster who defeats challengers of all styles, so I'd like to get on board that train.

    On a side note, since you mention tendon based movement as a fallacy from time to time:

    http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/tend...gth-training-7

    "Interestingly, research using electromyography as an indicator of calf muscle activity during running shows that the calf muscles are very active during the dorsiflexion phase and not active during the plantarflexion phase. This is contrary to what you might expect, as the theoretical role of the calf muscles is to contract concentrically (shorten) when the ankle plantarflexes. So how can the ankle plantarflex without any activity from the calf muscle? The answer is that the Achilles tendon is stretched during the dorsiflexion phase of the ankle movement, and the elastic energy stored during stretching is then released when the Achilles shortens. During running, the role of the calf muscle is to control the movement of the ankle with an eccentric (lengthening) contraction during the dorsiflexion (shock absorbing) phase, while the role of the Achilles tendon is to release energy while it shortens to plantarflex the ankle and push off the ground."

    There are several arts that use the muscles, gravity, and/or the opponent's force to load the connective tissues as a spring like unit. The resulting release of force is in large then performed by the tendons and connective tissue like a spring as the loading force is removed. This is a different method of generating force both in feel and method than simply engaging the muscles to contract and move the frame themselves (which will use some tendon elasticity as well, but with different emphasis).
    That's not "lifting with your tendons." Misguided MA instructors tell people to lift with their tendons to avoid getting big muscles (you know, cuz it's so easy to accidentally hypertrophy, and you certainly wouldn't want that since "muscles make you slow and inflexible"). Tendons can't contract. Nobody has ever lifted anything with their tendons.
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

    <BombScare> i beat the internet
    <BombScare> the end guy is hard.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    It should be much early than that. The

    - arm bridging start when your hand touch your opponent's wrist.
    - leg bridging start when your shin bone bite into your opponent's leg.

    There are 3 gates in arm bridging:

    1st gate - hand touch wrist,
    2nd gate - forearm touch forearm,
    3rd gate- forearm touch upper arm (arm wrap), shoulder (overhook, underhook), neck (head lock), waist (bear hug, waist surround), ...

    When you have arrived the 2nd gate (your hand pass your opponent's wrist), you are already in "clinching".
    I guess it's a definition thing, then. "Clinching" to me is what you think of when you see MT guys clinch. Looks like hugging

    In a kung fu context I'd always heard "bridging" referred to as like in that vid I posted, when the forearms cross. A "bridge" to connect you to your opponent so you can "read his intentions" by feeling micro movements, like what chi sao trains to do. I don't think chi sao really has a purpose in actual fighting, but hey, if someone can make it work for them, they should keep doing it.

    Of course there's a "bridge" in wrestling, too, but I don't think that's what anyone was talking about.

    I love how this forum is like "YOUR DEFINITION DIFFERS FROM MINE THEREFORE YOU ARE NOT AS SKILLED AND KNOWLEDGEABLE AS I AM AND I CHALLENGE YOU TO A CHALLENGE MATCH"



    Or more subtle variants of that
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

    <BombScare> i beat the internet
    <BombScare> the end guy is hard.

  8. #203
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    @Mr. Patterson.

    I read your definition of "Internal vs. External" here:

    http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i/IntvsExt.html

    I've never heard that definition before (the geographical location), but it makes sense.

    And it's a whole lot more feasible than the whole mystic qi power stuff.

    Question about this:

    It is also true, because of certain historical events, that nowadays the Internal school of thought focuses on not only self defense and external manifestations of ability, such as strength, stamina, flexibility and physical prowess, but also explores the inside of the practitioner’s development. Internal kung fu strengthens the internal organs and circulatory systems. It increases lymphatic circulation to aid the practitioner in removing toxins from the body more rapidly. It improves focus of mind and concentration of intellect. We also learn to apply the principles of Yin and Yang and the Five Elements, principles of redirection, absorption and reflection, evasion and entrapment, etc. These lessons are just as applicable strategically in a business m eeting as they are in self defense and confrontation. A person need only be taught their essence of expression in the practical sense. This is also part of Internal kung fu.
    How does "internal" kung fu accomplish the bolded more so than "external" kung fu?

    All physical exercise benefits the lymphatic system so I'm curious what added benefit "internal" kung fu provides. Same question for the circulatory system.

    And by what method does "internal" kung fu "strengthen the internal organs"? Are you saying IKF does this better than EKF, or that EKF doesn't do it at all?
    Last edited by IronFist; 05-16-2012 at 08:34 PM.
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

    <BombScare> i beat the internet
    <BombScare> the end guy is hard.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    Of course there's a "bridge" in wrestling, too, but I don't think that's what anyone was talking about.
    When a "striker" uses his definition that only fit in his "striking art", and when a "grappler" uses his definition that only fit in his "grappling art", the discussion will not be able to cover all areas and all angles.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-16-2012 at 09:02 PM.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    When a "striker" uses his definition that only fit in his "striking art", and when a "grappler" uses his definition that only fit in his "grappling art", the discussion will not be able to cover all areas and all angles.
    I thought we were only talking about "fighting" by Mr. Patterson's definition (which is apparently different than my definition although neither person has volunteered a definition)

    Surely real fighting involves grappling. Or can potentially involve grappling.

    If not, my "striking" definition of "bridging" is still different from yours.

    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

    <BombScare> i beat the internet
    <BombScare> the end guy is hard.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    If not, my "striking" definition of "bridging" is still different from yours.

    Here are the "bridge" in wrestling.

    http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2178/bridgeq.png

    http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6099/bridge1.png
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-16-2012 at 09:40 PM.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    u trollin' me?

    This is a wrestling bridge:

    http://i.imgur.com/QmzQr.jpg
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

    <BombScare> i beat the internet
    <BombScare> the end guy is hard.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    u trollin' me?

    This is a wrestling bridge:

    http://i.imgur.com/QmzQr.jpg
    lol .........

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    It should be much early than that. The

    - arm bridging start when your hand touch your opponent's wrist.
    - leg bridging start when your shin bone bite into your opponent's leg.

    There are 3 gates in arm bridging:

    1st gate - hand touch wrist,
    2nd gate - forearm touch forearm,
    3rd gate- forearm touch upper arm (arm wrap), shoulder (overhook, underhook), neck (head lock), waist (bear hug, waist surround), ...

    When you have arrived the 2nd gate (your hand pass your opponent's wrist), you are already in "clinching".
    Shifu,

    Thank you for presenting in the clearest form, how bridging is done, and the structures involved.

    Great post as always.

    Thank you, sir.
    Mouth Boxers have not the testicular nor the spinal fortitude to be known.
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  15. #210
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    A "bridge" is a connection between two ( or more) points.
    That connection doesn't even have to be physcial, it just has to be.
    I can "bridge" with my intent or by "faking" my opponent into the position I want him to be.
    But typically a bride is made when ANY contact is made.
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    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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