What does "internal" mean to you?

[SPJ]

internal and external are just binomial categorizations

they generalized things into 2 categorizations.

in medicine

we refer functions of internal organs into internal medicine.

we refer surgical procedures to external medicine or surgery.

etc etc

we may generalize certain training or practice into internal training

we may group certain training or practice into external traning

etc etc

The specific comes after you define or add things to that general categorization

etc etc

[Matthew]

Hi all, I really agree and believe it is important to understand terminology for martial artists/cultivators to have a readily specific vocabulary for discussion



I didn't do the poll because it is very vague and the terms apply to all art- the original poster's options are the same/too similar and all miss some glaringly obvious factor in defining internal-



Just to be clear on the term- 内功 nèigōng - meaning internal skill/ability/effort (as opposed to 外功 wàigōng - external skill/ability/effort)

They can prove it, you just can't see it (literally).

Find a "internal" guy and you will feel it, not see it coming.


Cheers

Although he only used vague terms, Robinhood is suggesting something that was really ignored in the original poster's poll-


Structure is important in all arts, breathing important in all arts, qi is important in all arts- because they are things associated with what all people must do so it is not so much the defining factors- although definitely important


It usually sounds mystical because westerners watch too many Dragon Ball Z shows and think that internal means shooting qi balls out of your hands.

These weren't discussed- and are usually factors to consider in determining if it is internal or external

-power generation in internal art has not been discussed other than mentioned Robinhood's post- and usually is a defining factor from external arts

-power handling and transform/changing nature in internal art differences are significant

-the meaning of 内功 neigong in Chinese language terms translation to english has relevance too

-health aspects associated with internal training is why so many external based style masters will only practice some qigong/neigong sets when they are in old age- internal art energy building practices instead of energy utilizing practices of external arts

[David Jamieson]

wait, I have another definition:

Internal = Highly organized system of excuses as to why the corpulent dude with breathing problems is actually a martial arts master who you should be terrified of.

external= smarmy wise cracking kids practicing mma and making fun of guys in pink gi's doing lin kong jin displays for money and fame....


There...is that correct?

[Robinhood]

Sure there is.

Even theoretical physicists can talk about what they do/study without being vague.

Only snakeoil salesmen and "gurus" (term intentionally used in quotes) are vague.

Why?

Because the gullible mistake vagueness for guruism.

Same thing happens with those scam artists who sell real estate investing and day trading seminars. They are super vague about how to make a lot of money, but they sure do get the people at the seminars pumped up with good emotions thinking they are actually learning something. It goes without saying that those guys make their money doing seminars, not investing in real estate or trading stocks (the thing they claim to be good at).

Ask a guy who works at a hedge fund how he makes money and he will be super specific (if he's not prevented by doing so by a confidentiality contract).

Ask a guy who gives trading seminars how to make money and you'll get vague nonsense in his answer.

As a general rule, if you get vague answers, run, don't walk. You can ask for clarification once or twice because maybe the person misunderstood you, but if you still get vagueness either 1) they cannot teach or 2) they are conmen. In either case, they are going to be of no help to you.

There is a difference between being vague and talking to some one that does not have enough experience to know what your talking about.

Your trading example is the same, most of those guys are not saying anything wrong, you just don't have enough experience to see it. Put in enough time and effort and you will understand it is not one thing, but all things combined that form the whole picture.

The hedge fund guy has a lot of experience and can know when to trade what, and at what time, he could tell you what he did, but it was only available at the moment he did it.

Cheers

[IronFist]

Hi all, I really agree and believe it is important to understand terminology for martial artists/cultivators to have a readily specific vocabulary for discussion



I didn't do the poll because it is very vague and the terms apply to all art- the original poster's options are the same/too similar and all miss some glaringly obvious factor in defining internal-



Just to be clear on the term- 内功 nèigōng - meaning internal skill/ability/effort (as opposed to 外功 wàigōng - external skill/ability/effort)






Although he only used vague terms, Robinhood is suggesting something that was really ignored in the original poster's poll-


Structure is important in all arts, breathing important in all arts, qi is important in all arts- because they are things associated with what all people must do so it is not so much the defining factors- although definitely important


It usually sounds mystical because westerners watch too many Dragon Ball Z shows and think that internal means shooting qi balls out of your hands.

These weren't discussed- and are usually factors to consider in determining if it is internal or external

-power generation in internal art has not been discussed other than mentioned Robinhood's post- and usually is a defining factor from external arts

-power handling and transform/changing nature in internal art differences are significant

-the meaning of 内功 neigong in Chinese language terms translation to english has relevance too

-health aspects associated with internal training is why so many external based style masters will only practice some qigong/neigong sets when they are in old age- internal art energy building practices instead of energy utilizing practices of external arts

You didn't really explain anything. You said differences exist but didn't even begin to quantify them.

[IronFist]

There is a difference between being vague and talking to some one that does not have enough experience to know what your talking about.

Your trading example is the same, most of those guys are not saying anything wrong, you just don't have enough experience to see it. Put in enough time and effort and you will understand it is not one thing, but all things combined that form the whole picture.

The hedge fund guy has a lot of experience and can know when to trade what, and at what time, he could tell you what he did, but it was only available at the moment he did it.

Cheers

False. The vast majority of trading "gurus" are snakeoil salesmen who either don't actually trade themselves, or who do trade but will not produce audited profit and loss statements.

Now think about that.

If I was a successful trader, and I was charging others to learn how to trade my supposedly "successful" method, shouldn't I be able to prove that I can actually trade myself before I have the gall to ask others to pay me for instruction? If you don't think so, I would like to tell you about my new mail-order qi blast classes. For only 3 payments of $10,000 I will teach you how to knock people out without touching them.

Yet none of the "gurus" will provide audited account statements.

I wonder why

Could it be because they know they are just BS'ing the gullible?????

Note that this is very similar to the fat martial arts instructors who don't spar with their students because they are "too deadly." And the students are just expected to take that at face value and the teacher never even has to demonstrate anything or do anything.

"I'm too deadly because I say I'm too deadly, and if you don't believe me you can get out of my class and not learn the secret deadly qi arts."

"I'm a profitable trader because I say I'm a profitable trader and if you don't believe me, get out of my seminar. I don't have to provide audited proof that I'm not a liar. Now give me your $3,000 so I can give you a vague lecture about how to make millions trading like I do because I'm so rich and successful."

The most hilarious part is when you ask those trading "gurus" questions, you get vague advice.

Here is an example:

A trading "guru" tells you that when condition x happens, you do y. So a student follows the instruction to the letter (which is often hard, since "gurus" are typically intentionally vague), and blows his account. The student asks the "guru" what went wrong and shows him his examples. The guru replies with some vague nonsense like "you need to do what price tells you to do." Now one of two things happen: 1) the student realizes he has been had, or 2) the student is a gullible moron and thinks he has just been given some sage advice and goes home to waste more time and money trying to learn something that doesn't even work in the first place.

There was one famous trading "guru" (scammer) who, when someone asked him about how it was possible to predict price direction, replied "I don't need a weatherman to tell me if it's going to be raining 5 minutes from now." Hopefully you guys realize that 1) that analogy isn't even valid in the first place, 2) it was intentionally vague and misdirecting, 3) it didn't answer the question, and 4) gullible people would actually be satisfied with that answer, as if he had just dropped some fortune cooking "guru" advice on them.

Compare that with this:

A quant is working at a hedge fund and his simulations aren't working as expected. He shows his examples and data to another guy there who gives him specific, quantifiable corrections, he makes the modifications and gets his predicted results. This is what you should expect anytime you ask anyone in a teacher/instructor position anything about anything.

Some of you guys need to read up on the psychology of sales scams.

btw, remember my $10,000 qi blast classes? Well if you don't experience success, it's obviously because you're not training hard enough, so don't even think of emailing me and telling me that you have questions about my instruction or that you aren't able to knock people out without touching them yet, because if you aren't having success it is your fault, not mine. My qi blast methods work because I say they work, I don't have to prove myself to you. You just have to train harder. Now stop wasting my time with your laziness and train.

I know a few of the real estate "gurus" have gotten into legal trouble for similar reasons (I forgot their names but I saw something in the news about it a while ago). It doesn't matter, though, because if you watch 5 seconds of their commercials you can tell they are full of BS.

I can't figure out if some of you are the "gurus" or if you're just the kind of people who take real estate investing seminars and pay $2,000 for a book full of vague advice sold to you by a Guy Smiley who makes you feel really good but doesn't actually teach you anything useful.

[Matthew]

You didn't really explain anything. You said differences exist but didn't even begin to quantify them.

Sorry it was not specific enough for you, IronFist- your post is asking what internal means to me- not quantification.





It is like if you ask "What does an orange mean to you?"

if I reply with 4 inch diameter, .3 lbs, 100 cubic inches, density of ...... then you say "no that sounds like an apple"

Both have similar density, both have similar mass, similar volume, grown on similar height tree, etc.- so you need to explore beyond this- you can't ignore context, history, methods, etc.






If you are trying to find an answer- you need to do the work to get to it. This is the old saying of teaching a man to fish - it is better than simply giving away fish...

You sound too concerned with structure, breathing, etc as they are mostly universal to all people/arts. [Although Chinese Martial Arts might focus more than other breathing, structure, coordination (6 harmonies- liu he 六合), yin yang balance, etc ]





I gave some relevant places to start discussion.
If you really want to learn what is internal definition then you would explore possibilities people gave to you

-power generation in internal art usually is a defining factor from external arts

-power handling and transform/changing nature in internal art differences are significant

-the meaning of 内功 neigong in Chinese language terms translation to english has relevance too

-internal art energy building practices instead of energy utilizing practices of external arts

[sanjuro_ronin]

doesn't mean anything to me other than an archaic term that no longer has any value to me.

[IronFist]

It is like if you ask "What does an orange mean to you?"

Your analogy isn't valid because "internal" is an adjective that can describe martial arts and techniques, but "an orange" is a noun.

How can people use an adjective to describe something when they don't understand what the adjective means?

if I reply with 4 inch diameter, .3 lbs, 100 cubic inches, density of ...... then you say "no that sounds like an apple"

Both have similar density, both have similar mass, similar volume, grown on similar height tree, etc.- so you need to explore beyond this- you can't ignore context, history, methods, etc.

To continue your analogy, it would be easy to describe "an orange."

It's a citrus fruit that grows on trees, is orange in color (hence the name), around 4" in diameter, with a skin around 3mm to 8mm in thickness (just estimating) with the fruit inside being divided into sections, etc.

I could draw, describe, or show an orange to someone and there would be little doubt left in their mind as to what an orange is.

But if you ask an internal "guru" what an orange is, they would probably say something like "an orange contains qi and tastes good." Thanks dude, big help. And all his followers would think that was the most brilliant answer, ever (despite the fact that even after being given that answer, none of them knows what an orange is).

If you are trying to find an answer- you need to do the work to get to it. This is the old saying of teaching a man to fish - it is better than simply giving away fish...

False. The onus of proof for the person with the mystical powers is to prove that they have the mystical powers. It is not up to the skeptic to prove they don't.

[Matthew]

Your analogy isn't valid because "internal" is an adjective that can describe martial arts and techniques

Okay, if you know- what is an internal technique? Don't quote other people- you are making a statement that "internal" describes techniques.

How can people use an adjective to describe something when they don't understand what the adjective means?

If you answer my question above without contradicting your own statement here- then you have solved the whole thread!

What is an internal technique?

False. The onus of proof for the person with the mystical powers is to prove that they have the mystical powers. It is not up to the skeptic to prove they don't.

You watch too much TV and think people can fly- you are too distracted by irrelevant analogies. Apple and Orange is only to get you to see you are missing the most vital factors which I have listed in all posts now so openly.





if you really want to find the definition, why not start discussing relevant factors?



You still ignored what my original post addresses- you have missed major factors in defining internal.. from my experience- these are relevant factor.

-term Neigong and it's meaning in chinese-to english
-power generation methods/types
-power handling methods/types
-transformation/change ability

[sanjuro_ronin]

I once asked an "internal stylist" of QI existed and he said Yes, of course.
So I asked if Qi was only MA related or can be use din everyday life and He said that it was NOT MA related and that Qi is used in everyday life.
I asked if Qi can be used to help us do a physcial activity and he said of course and MA power generation is a prime example.
So I asked him has does one use Qi to lift a weight from the floor? Or to move something heavy and He said that using Qi allows one to move with more than just the muscles.
So I laid down and asked him to lift me up using Qi.
Yeah, the conversation ended there.

[YouKnowWho]

The onus of proof for the person with the mystical powers is to prove that they have the mystical powers. It is not up to the skeptic to prove they don't.

Agree 100% there. If someone said "internal" exists, that person will have to prove it. If that person cannot prove it, it's that person's problem and not my problem.

Someone in another forum told me that there are 3 persons in US who can show me "internal". I told that person that if any of those 3 person wants to prove "internal" exist, they can come to my house and show what "internal" is in my living room. Since I don't care about whether "internal" exist or not, I have no interest to travel and find who those 3 persons really are.

The day when God stands above the cloud and says, "I do exist", I'll become christian. Until then, I have no interest to investigate God.

[IronFist]

Okay, if you know- what is an internal technique? Don't quote other people- you are making a statement that "internal" describes techniques.



If you answer my question above without contradicting your own statement here- then you have solved the whole thread!

What is an internal technique?

I said in the first post that "internal" means doing something enhanced with qi in a way that is distinctly different from doing it without qi.

I have never seen anyone who can demonstrate this, by the way. A lot of people say they are doing things and blaming it on qi, such as breaking the bottom brick by saying that are projecting their qi into it (which is incorrect, it is physics, and can be replicated with a hammer), or by taking a sledgehammer blow to the stomach and saying they are protecting themselves with qi (which is incorrect, they are using their fat (cuz it's always a fat guy doing this demo), muscle contractions, and proper application of body mechanics to protect themselves), etc. These people are either severely, severely mislead and actually believe they have mystic power, or they are liars and conmen.

Even the monks are in on this scam. There was a show on TV not too long ago where a monk claimed to protect himself from a drill using qi. He ran a drill and pressed it into his body. The "researchers" connected electrodes to his arm to prove that he was actually using muscle force to press the drill into this head. What they didn't mention was that he was pushing back with an equal amount of force with this other arm. So yes, they had data showing he was actually pressing the drill into his body, but they casually forgot to mention that he was pushing it away from his body with his other arm. Note that this monk works as a bodyguard in China. I hope he never gets into a real fight or has to stop someone attacking him with a drill.

You watch too much TV and think people can fly- you are too distracted by irrelevant analogies. Apple and Orange is only to get you to see you are missing the most vital factors which I have listed in all posts now so openly.

You tried to compare defining a vague adjective to defining a specific noun. Maybe that kind of logic works in qi blast class but it doesn't work when dealing with people who don't drink the Kool Aid.

[IronFist]

Agree 100% there. If someone said "internal" exists, that person will have to prove it. If that person cannot prove it, it's that person's problem and not my problem.

Someone in another forum told me that there are 3 persons in US who can show me "internal". I told that person that if any of those 3 person wants to prove "internal" exist, they can come to my house and show what "internal" is in my living room. Since I don't care about whether "internal" exist or not, I have no interest to travel and find who those 3 persons really are.

The day when God stands above the cloud and says, "I do exist", I'll become christian. Until then, I have no interest to investigate God.

Honestly, at least (most) religious people will usually say you have to take it on faith.

And that's just fine. That's why it's called "faith."

I've never heard a qigong guy say you have to take it on faith, however. Especially not the ones up on stage scamming people into believing they are breaking the bottom brick (a physics trick) by projecting their qi into it.

God cannot be proven, which is why it's called "faith." And I have no issue with that. I don't even think atheists have an issue with that.

However, doing a technique with qi (interally) vs. without qi (externally) should be able to be demonstrated, assuming "qi" is real, and in fact doing so would give conclusive proof that not only is qi real, but that it has martial applications.

But until someone can demonstrate it without resorting to physics tricks, sleight of hand, and physical conditioning, only the gullible will believe it.

But I guess there's a lot of money to be made off of the gullible, so it's not likely we'll ever see a legit demo of internal skills anytime soon.

Now, about my no touch knockout qi blast course. If you act now I will knock off one payment of $10,000, bringing your total to just two payments of $10,000.

[xinyidizi]

The options for this poll are insufficient for describing internal martial arts. 6 harmonies as a whole is the best description that I know for the internal martial arts that I have practiced so far and the reason that they are called harmonies is because they are all connected!