What does "internal" mean to you?

[Matthew]

I said in the first post that "internal" means doing something enhanced with qi in a way that is distinctly different from doing it without qi.

I have, throughout my experiences with martial artists, come to what seems to be a semi-consistent definition of internal (Nei Gong) skill/practice. No where have I ever heard what you just said.

protecting themselves with qi

protect himself from a drill using qi

your problem is not with defining internal- you have an issue with people who make unfounded claims about Qi and using Qi.




Why are you bringing that into a discussion about defining internal?


内功 neigong or internal skill/effort/practice definition has nothing to do with these people making unfounded claims.


Sorry to say- I feel like you derailed your own thread. If you were talking about people selling snake oil- that is one thing. There are plenty of great martial artists who don't need to use magical examples or unfounded claims to show you what internal practice is.

[SPJ]

inner 3 forms/shapes/manifestation (nei san xing)

outer 3 forms/shapes/manifestations (wai san xing)

they are 6 in harmony or liu he.

based upon the common definitions in many styles of CMA and JMA.

nei training is not only related to qi

but also jing and shen

jing qi shen are 3 shapes from your inside.

so how do you train or cultivate

your 3 inner strengths?

of course, non believers say that they do not exist

---

[bawang]

there is no such thing as internal in traditional chinese martial arts. the term does not exist. the concept does not exist.


it has a powerful grip on many peoples minds because it is a cult indoctrination device.

[YouKnowWho]

6 harmonies as a whole is the best description that I know for the internal martial arts that I have practiced so far and the reason that they are called harmonies is because they are all connected!

The 6 harmonies is the most important principle that I have followed all my life but I still don't believe in "internal". The human body is like 3 springs. All 3 springs should be compressed and released at the same time. When your body move, all body parts move. When you body stop, all body parts stop. Is that "internal"? It's more like the "correct way to move" to me. Instead of saying "internal" and "external", we should say, "correct way" or "incorrect way" to perform certain body function.

[xinyidizi]

The 6 harmonies is the most important principle that I have followed all my life but I still don't believe in "internal".

I think you are talking about 3 harmonies.

[bawang]

或无学无才，无谋无识，而谬夸张大，云有秘能神术者，是为误军之奸；无艺无力

"those that have no martial skills or talents and know nothing, tell exaggerated stories and speak of secret teachings and supernatural powers. they are liars and frauds. they are weak and useless."

-on training, 1600s

[Lucas]

或无学无才，无谋无识，而谬夸张大，云有秘能神术者，是为误军之奸；无艺无力

"those that have no martial skills or talents and know nothing, exaggerate their prowess and speak of secret teachings and supernatural powers. they are liars and frauds. they are weak and useless."

-on training, 1600s

totally quote worthy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

或无学无才，无谋无识，而谬夸张大，云有秘能神术者，是为误军之奸；无艺无力

"those that have no martial skills or talents and know nothing, tell exaggerated stories and speak of secret teachings and supernatural powers. they are liars and frauds. they are weak and useless."

-on training, 1600s

Bawang with the chi blast for the win !

[bawang]

the founder of yang style tai chi lifted weights every single day so his joints made popping noises. when his students asked why he said its because he channeled qi into his marrows.

[YouKnowWho]

I think you are talking about 3 harmonies.

Because the "internal" 3 harmonies cannot be seen or proved. I don't like to talk about anything that I cannot "demonstrate" it by Youtube clip. I may say that I have achieved the "internal" 3 harmonies, but you may say that I have not. It will turn into endless argument just like the word "internal".

[IronFist]

I have, throughout my experiences with martial artists, come to what seems to be a semi-consistent definition of internal (Nei Gong) skill/practice. No where have I ever heard what you just said.





your problem is not with defining internal- you have an issue with people who make unfounded claims about Qi and using Qi.




Why are you bringing that into a discussion about defining internal?


内功 neigong or internal skill/effort/practice definition has nothing to do with these people making unfounded claims.


Sorry to say- I feel like you derailed your own thread. If you were talking about people selling snake oil- that is one thing. There are plenty of great martial artists who don't need to use magical examples or unfounded claims to show you what internal practice is.

The wikipedia link I posted on the first page says internal martial arts involve qi.

If "internal" does not involve qi, or if "internal" just means "breathing and structure," then:

1) "internal" martial arts are no different from "external" martial arts

and

2) everything in the world is "internal"

[Lucas]

the founder of yang style tai chi lifted weights every single day so his joints made popping noises. when his students asked why he said its because he channeled qi into his marrows.

and now we have all this confusion because his students couldnt tell he was joking around...

[Robinhood]

False. The vast majority of trading "gurus" are snakeoil salesmen who either don't actually trade themselves, or who do trade but will not produce audited profit and loss statements.

Now think about that.

If I was a successful trader, and I was charging others to learn how to trade my supposedly "successful" method, shouldn't I be able to prove that I can actually trade myself before I have the gall to ask others to pay me for instruction? If you don't think so, I would like to tell you about my new mail-order qi blast classes. For only 3 payments of $10,000 I will teach you how to knock people out without touching them.

Yet none of the "gurus" will provide audited account statements.

I wonder why

Could it be because they know they are just BS'ing the gullible?????

Note that this is very similar to the fat martial arts instructors who don't spar with their students because they are "too deadly." And the students are just expected to take that at face value and the teacher never even has to demonstrate anything or do anything.

"I'm too deadly because I say I'm too deadly, and if you don't believe me you can get out of my class and not learn the secret deadly qi arts."

"I'm a profitable trader because I say I'm a profitable trader and if you don't believe me, get out of my seminar. I don't have to provide audited proof that I'm not a liar. Now give me your $3,000 so I can give you a vague lecture about how to make millions trading like I do because I'm so rich and successful."

The most hilarious part is when you ask those trading "gurus" questions, you get vague advice.

Here is an example:

A trading "guru" tells you that when condition x happens, Yom u do y. So a student follows the instruction to the letter (which is often hard, since "gurus" are typically intentionally vague), and blows his account. The studennt asks the "guru" what went wrong and shows him his examples. The guru replies with some vague nonsense like "you need to do what price tells you to do." Now one of two things happen: 1) the student realizes he has been had, or 2) the student is a gullible moron and thinks he has just been given some sage advice and goes home to waste more time and money trying to learn something that doesn't even work in the first place.

There was one famous trading "guru" (scammer) who, when someone asked him about how it was possible to predict price direction, replied "I don't need a weatherman to tell me if it's going to be raining 5 minutes from now." Hopefully you guys realize that 1) that analogy isn't even valid in the first place, 2) it was intentionally vague and misdirecting, 3) it didn't answer the question, and 4) gullible people would actually be satisfied with that answer, as if he had just dropped some fortune cooking "guru" advice on them.

Compare that with this:

A quant is working at a hedge fund and his simulations aren't working as expected. He shows his examples and data to another guy there who gives him specific, quantifiable corrections, he makes the modifications and gets his predicted results. This is what you should expect anytime you ask anyone in a teacher/instructor position anything about anything.

Some of you guys need to read up on the psychology of sales scams.

btw, remember my $10,000 qi blast classes? Well if you don't experience success, it's obviously because you're not training hard enough, so don't even think of emailing me and telling me that you have questions about my instruction or that you aren't able to knock people out without touching them yet, because if you aren't having success it is your fault, not mine. My qi blast methods work because I say they work, I don't have to prove myself to you. You just have to train harder. Now stop wasting my time with your laziness and train.

I know a few of the real estate "gurus" have gotten into legal trouble for similar reasons (I forgot their names but I saw something in the news about it a while ago). It doesn't matter, though, because if you watch 5 seconds of their commercials you can tell they are full of BS.

I can't figure out if some of you are the "gurus" or if you're just the kind of people who take real estate investing seminars and pay $2,000 for a book full of vague advice sold to you by a Guy Smiley who makes you feel really good but doesn't actually teach you anything useful.

You can't expect someone to just give you something you don't have, sounds like you think you can pay a guy, and not do any work yourself and make money.

If you actually had experience in real trading, you would be able to filter out what people say, you try to lump everything together into what you think it should be.

Just like in MA , you have to do the work and find it, no one can give it to you or tell you the secret that will transform you.

Even if the Guru proved he made money, you would still lose.


Cheers

[Robinhood]

The 6 harmonies is the most important principle that I have followed all my life but I still don't believe in "internal". The human body is like 3 springs. All 3 springs should be compressed and released at the same time. When your body move, all body parts move. When you body stop, all body parts stop. Is that "internal"? It's more like the "correct way to move" to me. Instead of saying "internal" and "external", we should say, "correct way" or "incorrect way" to perform certain body function.

No that is not internal . That is just external techniques.

If you insist on making everything into a technique, you will not find "internal", Internal is not a technique.


Cheers

[YouKnowWho]

you will not find "internal", ...

What make you think that I care about to find it?

Last year when one of those 3 "internal" masters (that I mentioned) had a workshop in Austin, Texas, a friend of mine asked me whether I would be interest to meet him and I told him "no". I knew we might start with friendly conversation, but the moment that my opponent mentioned the word "internal", I would want that person to prove it. There could only be 2 outcomes, either he proved to me that "internal" exist (which I didn't care), or I proved to him that "internal" didn't exist (That person did care a lot). It was just not fair for the vistor.

Just like in MA , you have to do the work and find it, no one can give it to you or tell you the secret that will transform you.

You assume that people may beg to be "transformed" (as if we all have "sin" and beg God for forgiveness). That's not the case in the real world. On the other hand, I feel sorry for those who think they have sin and need forgiveness from God.