Chi-sao

[sanjuro_ronin]

It looks like you are thinking that sport fighting is reality fighting, it is a way of battling with rules that favors Neanderthal skills, not much room in their rule set that favors higher level skills that sensitivity training would give you.

Chi-sau training is one of the few ways that is able to reprogram improper responses to applied forces, it is not a sparring game like you see it used and practiced in most WC schools.

If you used the training for the right development it is great, but most people don't know how use it correctly.

If you don't know the difference between sport fighting and real confrontations, your experience is clearly lacking.


Cheers

Classic Robinhood !

[Wayfaring]

It looks like you are thinking that sport fighting is reality fighting, it is a way of battling with rules that favors Neanderthal skills, not much room in their rule set that favors higher level skills that sensitivity training would give you.

When rules are reduced to nothing fighting much more resembles sport fighting than it does chi sau.

Oh, and besides changing the rules to become a glorified slap fight, please enlighten us how you would change fighting rule sets so that it favors "higher level skills that sensitivity training would give you".

Chi-sau training is one of the few ways that is able to reprogram improper responses to applied forces, it is not a sparring game like you see it used and practiced in most WC schools.

From my experience people who do a lot of chi sau and don't spar have the exact same natural reaction to getting punched in the face other people do - they throw their hands up and move back in a straight line. Usually they are worse than beginners because they perceive themselves as experts or highly skilled fighters. I don't see a lot of "reprogramming improper responses to applied forces".

If you used the training for the right development it is great, but most people don't know how use it correctly.

I agree with this.

If you don't know the difference between sport fighting and real confrontations, your experience is clearly lacking.

If you think the gap between "sport fighting" and "real confrontations" is larger than the gap between chi sau and "real confrontations" you are living in fantasy land.

[Wayfaring]

In a nutshell, yes.
I have no problem in Chi Sao STARTING off as it typically does, it gives the student a hands on understanding of the correct structure and sensitivity needed to deal with "clinch fighting" WITHIN the WC context.

As a tool to help fine-tune your close range fighting, chi sau is great.

However, as soon as the student HAS grasped this, the chi sao should move (evolve) to dealing with how OTHER systems will present problems to him.

When the tool to fine-tune now becomes the primary training element of fight training, now you have a problem.

[Robinhood]

When rules are reduced to nothing fighting much more resembles sport fighting than it does chi sau.

Oh, and besides changing the rules to become a glorified slap fight, please enlighten us how you would change fighting rule sets so that it favors "higher level skills that sensitivity training would give you".


From my experience people who do a lot of chi sau and don't spar have the exact same natural reaction to getting punched in the face other people do - they throw their hands up and move back in a straight line. Usually they are worse than beginners because they perceive themselves as experts or highly skilled fighters. I don't see a lot of "reprogramming improper responses to applied forces".


I agree with this.

If you think the gap between "sport fighting" and "real confrontations" is larger than the gap between chi sau and "real confrontations" you are living in fantasy land.

If no rules and confrontation still looks like Neanderthal sport, then the levels of the skill are not high yet.

If the people you are practice with still run into your power, you are not practicing with high level people.

Sport is sport, that is the way it is going to look to give entertainment and safety.


Chi-Sao is just one of many tools, it is not a style or end all, or a method of fighting.


Cheers

[duende]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin
In a nutshell, yes.
I have no problem in Chi Sao STARTING off as it typically does, it gives the student a hands on understanding of the correct structure and sensitivity needed to deal with "clinch fighting" WITHIN the WC context.
As a tool to help fine-tune your close range fighting, chi sau is great.

Quote:
However, as soon as the student HAS grasped this, the chi sao should move (evolve) to dealing with how OTHER systems will present problems to him.
When the tool to fine-tune now becomes the primary training element of fight training, now you have a problem.

If you think Chi Sau is solely about testing your sensitivity skills against other WC systems, then yes... the usage of of this "tool" in the development fighting skill is clearly lacking.

However if you use Chi Sau as a bridging method to engage space from all ranges and facings. And learn how to deal with energy from a multitude of fighting methods and tactics (other styles), then it actually becomes a clear part of one's fighting body mechanics and guard.

Everyone has their own view of what Chi Sau is. No one here can speak for all lineages or understandings.

Often people here do not see beyond the "techniques" of WC and thereby utilize it as a "style". With this kind of mindset, how will they ever be able to apply their WC skills in the real world.

In my experience, WC is not a style... it's an understanding of body mechanics and principles that help one use facing and points of leverage to their utmost advantage... or maximum efficiency.

my .02

[Phil Redmond]

All the Chi Sao training in the world won't teach you how to take a full power hit and continue fighting. You need to train under pressure to learn how to fight regardless of the style. So unless you go out and start street fights the best way IS sport fighting. Also, street fighting is something different. I'll hit a guy with my keys, a stick, or whatever is available in a street fight. You don't need much martial skills for that. I teach chi sao and it can be a good training tool but sport fighting is a way more realistic. Usually people who don't pressure test their art look down on sport fighting and that's why other martial artists look down on Wing Chun.

[sanjuro_ronin]

All the Chi Sao training in the world won't teach you how to take a full power hit and continue fighting. You need to train under pressure to learn how to fight regardless of the style. So unless you go out and start street fights the best way IS sport fighting. Also, street fighting is something different. I'll hit a guy with my keys, a stick, or whatever is available in a street fight. You don't need much martial skills for that. I teach chi sao and it can be a good training tool but sport fighting is a way more realistic. Usually people who are afraid to fight, or have never pressure tested their art look down on sport fighting

A voice crying in the wilderness...

[Phil Redmond]

A voice crying in the wilderness...

Lol, I changed the word "afraid" so as not to ruffle any feathers......

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lol, I changed the word "afraid" so as not to ruffle any feathers......

PC loving SOB

I feel you bro...

I've noticed that the those that feel sport fighting is "less" than "real" fighting have never done sport fighting and have only fought "unskilled" people in "the street", if they've fought at all.

[Phil Redmond]

Wing Chun is a "martial" art. The word martial is derived from Mars, the god of war. If you're not realistically training to fight you're not doing a "martial" art. PERIOD. But I guess most Wing Chun people will continue with business as usual looking for a way to fight without fighting. Hmm, I've heard that somewhere before.....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wing Chun is a "martial" art. The word martial is derived from Mars, the god of war. If you're not realistically training to fight you're not doing a "martial" art. PERIOD. But I guess most Wing Chun people will continue with business as usual looking for a way to fight without fighting. Hmm, I've heard that somewhere before.....

I have no problem with people doing a MA and NOT fighting.
Shocking I know but the truth is most people do it because they like it.
BUT most people do NOT go on MA forums expressing those views with nothing to back them up and they certainly don't argue with those that HAVE fighting experience.
You don't see recreational drivers going on a pro drivers forum and argue driving technique with current or former pro drivers.
While most of us have retired from the fight game in ALL it's forms, we at least have the experience to comment on it.
I don't even expect people to agree with my views, where's the fun in that? but at least have a DIRECT and PERSONAL base for the views you do have.
Know what I mean?

[Phil Redmond]

I have no problem with people doing a MA and NOT fighting.
Shocking I know but the truth is most people do it because they like it.
BUT most people do NOT go on MA forums expressing those views with nothing to back them up and they certainly don't argue with those that HAVE fighting experience.
You don't see recreational drivers going on a pro drivers forum and argue driving technique with current or former pro drivers.
While most of us have retired from the fight game in ALL it's forms, we at least have the experience to comment on it.
I don't even expect people to agree with my views, where's the fun in that? but at least have a DIRECT and PERSONAL base for the views you do have.
Know what I mean?

I guess everyone's not a fighter. The old school way of thinking is that the majority of your students don't fight, but they maintain the school financially. Out of those students you may find a couple of fighters so you train them more realistically.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I guess everyone's not a fighter. The old school way of thinking is that the majority of your students don't fight, but they maintain the school financially. Out of those students you may find a couple of fighters so you train them more realistically.

Indeed, nevertheless I firmly believe that no one can develop their MA to the highest level if they do NOT fight (if not in competition at least in class and realistically).
It is in fighting that we "unlock the secrets" to our chosen MA.
Of course, not everyone is that interested BUT all should be taught by a teacher that DOES have the PRACTICAL grasp of what FIGHTING with the MA in question is all about.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey Phil, whatever happened to Vic ??

[duende]

All the Chi Sao training in the world won't teach you how to take a full power hit and continue fighting. You need to train under pressure to learn how to fight regardless of the style. So unless you go out and start street fights the best way IS sport fighting. Also, street fighting is something different. I'll hit a guy with my keys, a stick, or whatever is available in a street fight. You don't need much martial skills for that. I teach chi sao and it can be a good training tool but sport fighting is a way more realistic. Usually people who don't pressure test their art look down on sport fighting and that's why other martial artists look down on Wing Chun.

Sports fighting is completely necessary. That's obvious to anyone who understands pressure testing.

But I would argue that one not only has to be able to not only take a real punch, but also lock-up and divert oncoming succeeding punches as part their chi sau skill challenges.

This is simply a core factor of bridging.