Chi-sao

[k gledhill]

I'm gonna state something that will probably come out the wrong way, LOL!
I have a "friend" that does WC, he is a teacher.
He has trained guys that have fought and been sucessful in boxing, MT and MMA.
He is kind of a "rebel" and is on the "outs" with the WC "community" here because of his "fight first" mentality.
He believes that if you can't fight with your WC VS any and all other systems, then take up taiji ().
I have personally seen a couple of his guys going against MMA guys in training and they do very well.
Why do I mention this?
Here comes the controversy:
One of the first things he did when he started training guys to deal with other systems and such was to STOP CHI SAO, at least how it is typically done.
He said all it did was create some pretty bad habits that get you "killed in a real fight vs a non-wc fighter".
When I asked about those that DO chi sao and were know to be good fighters he said that was a case of "in-spite of" not "because of".

After seeing most chi sao videos and most chi sao, I think he is probably right.

Gee, ....amazing insight

[k gledhill]

Taan-bong-jam, taan-bong-jam, taan-bong-jam... I know somebody's favorite.

aka , to us, hit defend hit, hit defend hit....

[Vajramusti]

I'm gonna state something that will probably come out the wrong way, LOL!
I have a "friend" that does WC, he is a teacher.
He has trained guys that have fought and been sucessful in boxing, MT and MMA.
He is kind of a "rebel" and is on the "outs" with the WC "community" here because of his "fight first" mentality.
He believes that if you can't fight with your WC VS any and all other systems, then take up taiji ().
I have personally seen a couple of his guys going against MMA guys in training and they do very well.
Why do I mention this?
Here comes the controversy:
One of the first things he did when he started training guys to deal with other systems and such was to STOP CHI SAO, at least how it is typically done.
He said all it did was create some pretty bad habits that get you "killed in a real fight vs a non-wc fighter".
When I asked about those that DO chi sao and were know to be good fighters he said that was a case of "in-spite of" not "because of".

After seeing most chi sao videos and most chi sao, I think he is probably right.

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Sanjuro- I don't know your friend... but it does not matter. All kinds of folks have all kinds of opinions. Once again- wing chun is NOT the only way to fight. Fighting is fighting -but it's nota single concept- so there are different approaches to something called fighting which has various outcomes.. But if you are going to do wing chun- good chi sao is an important component of good wing chun. The recent chi sao vids on this forum are not imo good examples of wing chun. I respect WSL. Gary Lam, David P and WSL's ex brother in law...WSL was a good fighter... but the spreading of WSL wing chun is quite uneven.
Lot of it is bad imitation- xerox of xerox of a xerox- with unbalanced pushing and shoving replacing the insufficiency of understanding principles and concepts. Again- wing chun has spread too fast and has spread unevenly.But- Without chi sao just fighting does not result in understanding wing chun.

Speaking only for myself.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

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Sanjuro- I don't know your friend... but it does not matter. All kinds of folks have all kinds of opinions. Once again- wing chun is NOT the only way to fight. Fighting is fighting -but it's nota single concept- so there are different approaches to something called fighting which has various outcomes.. But if you are going to do wing chun- good chi sao is an important component of good wing chun. The recent chi sao vids on this forum are not imo good examples of wing chun. I respect WSL. Gary Lam, David P and WSL's ex brother in law...WSL was a good fighter... but the spreading of WSL wing chun is quite uneven.
Lot of it is bad imitation- xerox of xerox of a xerox- with unbalanced pushing and shoving replacing the insufficiency of understanding principles and concepts. Again- wing chun has spread too fast and has spread unevenly.But- Without chi sao just fighting does not result in understanding wing chun.

Speaking only for myself.

joy chaudhuri

lmao at Joy ...thanks for making us all feel easy now we know YOU are doing it the right way

[k gledhill]

Just clips of drills....they contain errors, we drill to fix them. When you are perfect you are dead and buried, until then TRAIN HARD ~ !

[Wayfaring]

What do you think of his haircut ? Is that okay ....?

Whatever k. The point was he looks like an idiot training like that, not personal grooming preferences.

To me it illustrates the whole poser frame of chi sau. Look like a stud with your shirt off, but don't need to take off your glasses or make any modifications for training fighting where normally you attempt to punch each other in the face.

LOL at that training mentality. BTW I know plenty of tough people with thick horn-rim glasses that take them off to spar. The only reason not to is that you're reasonably certain you're not going to get punched in the eye.

Poser. And who cares about his haircut.

[Wayfaring]

I'm gonna state something that will probably come out the wrong way, LOL!
I have a "friend" that does WC, he is a teacher.
He has trained guys that have fought and been sucessful in boxing, MT and MMA.
He is kind of a "rebel" and is on the "outs" with the WC "community" here because of his "fight first" mentality.
He believes that if you can't fight with your WC VS any and all other systems, then take up taiji ().
I have personally seen a couple of his guys going against MMA guys in training and they do very well.
Why do I mention this?
Here comes the controversy:
One of the first things he did when he started training guys to deal with other systems and such was to STOP CHI SAO, at least how it is typically done.
He said all it did was create some pretty bad habits that get you "killed in a real fight vs a non-wc fighter".
When I asked about those that DO chi sao and were know to be good fighters he said that was a case of "in-spite of" not "because of".

After seeing most chi sao videos and most chi sao, I think he is probably right.

For some more perspective on stuff like this, I have started to introduce a chi sau drill type of thing just playing around with some of the MMA fighters - pros and amateurs. Their first reaction is "what the f is this for?" as intuitively not one single one of them could pick up that it has a lot to do with fighting.

After some explanation they start to get the picture of controlling the opponent and seeing some value in close range striking and clinch work. Still it's not something one single fighter would choose to replace full live mma type sparring rounds with.

I more agree with your friend's mentality.

Now let's all strike a chi sau pose.

[Wayfaring]

Just clips of drills....they contain errors, we drill to fix them. When you are perfect you are dead and buried, until then TRAIN HARD ~ !

I'm kind of trying to point out some of the errors in approach. I mean take off the d@mn glasses, put in a mouthpiece, and stop pausing the strikes to the chest and head for photo ops.

TRAIN SMART and TRAIN HARD. Don't catch a TRAIN traveling in the wrong direction.

[Wayfaring]

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Sanjuro- I don't know your friend... but it does not matter. All kinds of folks have all kinds of opinions. Once again- wing chun is NOT the only way to fight. Fighting is fighting -but it's nota single concept- so there are different approaches to something called fighting which has various outcomes.. But if you are going to do wing chun- good chi sao is an important component of good wing chun. The recent chi sao vids on this forum are not imo good examples of wing chun. I respect WSL. Gary Lam, David P and WSL's ex brother in law...WSL was a good fighter... but the spreading of WSL wing chun is quite uneven.
Lot of it is bad imitation- xerox of xerox of a xerox- with unbalanced pushing and shoving replacing the insufficiency of understanding principles and concepts. Again- wing chun has spread too fast and has spread unevenly.But- Without chi sao just fighting does not result in understanding wing chun.

Speaking only for myself.

joy chaudhuri

The point IMO not addressed in WCK is the translation of skills learned in chi sau to a realistic fighting environment. There are way too many "slick chi sau" WCK teachers that would get destroyed in realistic fighting as they never practice it. Their students never practice it.

"But if you are going to do wing chun- good chi sao is an important component of good wing chun."

In geometry there are 3 absolutes - point, line and plane. The rest of it is derived.

Here it sounds like the absolutes of WCK have nothing to do with fighting. Chi sau is an absolute. Why? It was originally intended as a training wheel on a bike by fighting WCK masters. It has been watered down and accepted as the be all end all of WCK. That can only happen when people don't fight.

[k gledhill]

Agree with wayfaring here, chi-sao is NOT a war zone, sparring is not done in a drill to develop skills to fight with...we spar to test the skills, then go back to chi-sao modules to work them out. Then back to sparring randomly....

Chi-sao, to the vast majority, is now a place to spar.

[Wayfaring]

I'm picking on the video guys a bit. For all I know those guys spar full out and don't wear glasses and are just playing around drilling in front of a camera.

[free2flow]

I'm picking on the video guys a bit. For all I know those guys spar full out and don't wear glasses and are just playing around drilling in front of a camera.

For all we know they're actually MMA fighters.....

[duende]

Whatever k. The point was he looks like an idiot training like that, not personal grooming preferences.

To me it illustrates the whole poser frame of chi sau. Look like a stud with your shirt off, but don't need to take off your glasses or make any modifications for training fighting where normally you attempt to punch each other in the face.

LOL at that training mentality. BTW I know plenty of tough people with thick horn-rim glasses that take them off to spar. The only reason not to is that you're reasonably certain you're not going to get punched in the eye.

Poser. And who cares about his haircut.

A wake-up call is definitely needed. Glasses get broken first thing against real skill challenges. Even if the strikes are controlled.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A wake-up call is definitely needed. Glasses get broken first thing against real skill challenges. Even if the strikes are controlled.

For a time we tired using goggles when training finger strikes to the eyes.
All the happened was sprained fingers and scratched faces.
It was like we got into a fight at the local brothel !

[k gledhill]

I'm picking on the video guys a bit. For all I know those guys spar full out and don't wear glasses and are just playing around drilling in front of a camera.

For a time we tired using goggles when training finger strikes to the eyes.
All the happened was sprained fingers and scratched faces.
It was like we got into a fight at the local brothel !

We used to wear catcher style headgear with wire mesh tie across the eye area. Using eye jabs .