Chi-sao

[JPinAZ]

As I know, back should be straight and if you push your elbows exact to the center, your shoulders get tense...

I agree, back should be straight, and, there should be no issue getting your elbows in with an upright posture.

Master WSL did not do any back curl, when he practiced chi sao...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nvfCJHyui0

Jox,

Good point! But then I was always taught that I should do what the system teaches me, not what 'sifu does', so shouldn't matter

[Happy Tiger]

Nice comparison of form. Did sigong Wong Shun Leung curve or lean?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnxFzCsUy7k

[imperialtaichi]

Chi Sau is an important part of training, it develops many attributes useful in fighting, but it does not cover every aspect of fighting such as bridging, intercepting, range judgement etc. Relying on Chi Sau alone in training to fight is impractical.

Btw, strictly speaking in KL22 we don't have Chi Sau, but other partner training exercises. But we do do Chi Sau so we can play with other WC guys.

[Vajramusti]

Chi Sau is an important part of training, it develops many attributes useful in fighting, but it does not cover every aspect of fighting such as bridging, intercepting, range judgement etc. Relying on Chi Sau alone in training to fight is impractical.

Btw, strictly speaking in KL22 we don't have Chi Sau, but other partner training exercises. But we do do Chi Sau so we can play with other WC guys.

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I beg to differ in part. The chi sao that I/we do does include bridging, intercepting, range judgement etc.
among other things. Of course it is not fighting.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Btw, strictly speaking in KL22 we don't have Chi Sau, but other partner training exercises. But we do do Chi Sau so we can play with other WC guys.

One of the most interesting things I have read here in a while.

From my limited experience of Wing Chun from Kulo and Fatshan they both have various interactive drills that are similar to what we refer to as Chisau in the West, but they will actually have 'names' for these exercises. This is something I have always stressed sinced being on these forums, the term Chisau is a western 'adoption' that covers an array of interactive platforms. I call these platforms 'Doi Lien' or 'Doi Chat'. One is smooth and soft, the other hard and disruptive.

Personally I have no time to 'play' chisau because that is not what it is for. I wouldn't entertain learning something just to 'fit-in' with others.

[Vajramusti]

One of the most interesting things I have read here in a while.

From my limited experience of Wing Chun from Kulo and Fatshan they both have various interactive drills that are similar to what we refer to as Chisau in the West, but they will actually have 'names' for these exercises. This is something I have always stressed sinced being on these forums, the term Chisau is a western 'adoption' that covers an array of interactive platforms. I call these platforms 'Doi Lien' or 'Doi Chat'. One is smooth and soft, the other hard and disruptive.

Personally I have no time to 'play' chisau because that is not what it is for. I wouldn't entertain learning something just to 'fit-in' with others.

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I am not debating -just sharing a POV. Ip Man's chi sao when taught well is far more complete than
Chan Wah Sun's family chi sao and Kulo wing chun. Variations of single, double, lop sao, with footwork, stepping, lat sao, man sao, gor sao- all fitting into each other trains a wide set of attributes in some IM lineages including mine..
I accept the view that Ip man got addittional training- most likely from Leung Bik.Kulo emerged from the few villagers leung Jan briefly taught when he returned to Kulo a couple of years before he died.
Of course good people can make Fatshan wc and kulo wc work for them The wc style has it's diversities. One builds on what is available.

joy chaudhuri

[Happy Tiger]

One of the most interesting things I have read here in a while.

From my limited experience of Wing Chun from Kulo and Fatshan they both have various interactive drills that are similar to what we refer to as Chisau in the West, but they will actually have 'names' for these exercises. This is something I have always stressed sinced being on these forums, the term Chisau is a western 'adoption' that covers an array of interactive platforms. I call these platforms 'Doi Lien' or 'Doi Chat'. One is smooth and soft, the other hard and disruptive.

Personally I have no time to 'play' chisau because that is not what it is for. I wouldn't entertain learning something just to 'fit-in' with others.

Although I wouldn't waste too much of my time on something pointless, I must admit I do like the social aspects of chi sau. It is a communication shared by most in VT that brings us together,reveals much about some one..... in flavor, skill, potential skill and personality. It's very interesting that K22 doesn't traditionaly have chi sau as we typically know it. I'll take chi sau over chess most days! Doi Lien and Doi Chat, good identifying terms.

[JPinAZ]

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I beg to differ in part. The chi sao that I/we do does include bridging, intercepting, range judgement etc.
among other things. Of course it is not fighting.

joy chaudhuri

If 'chi sau' trains things like bridging, intercetping, understanding range then it is all about fighting! What part of those things are not fighting?

[sanjuro_ronin]

If 'chi sau' trains things like bridging, intercetping, understanding range then it is all about fighting! What part of those things are not fighting?

Because you are not actually fighting?
You know, the other guy trying to knock your block off and you know it and as such you are under real pressure not to be skull humped. That kind of fighting.

[Vajramusti]

Because you are not actually fighting?
You know, the other guy trying to knock your block off and you know it and as such you are under real pressure not to be skull humped. That kind of fighting.

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Yup

joy chaudhuri

[Eric_H]

you are under real pressure not to be skull humped

That sounds less like fighting and more like a porno shoot gone horribly wrong.

[desertwingchun2]

From my experience, since learning WC (which included my Sihings and I playing an abundant amount of Chi Sao) I have had a few "chances" to get into a fight. This is real deal East LA street fighting I am talking about.

The thing I found is once I engaged with these guys and controlled their movements (one thing Chi Sao taught me) there was no fight left in these guys. So in effect Chi Sao made me a better fighter in that like my man Bruce, I was fighting without really fighting.
Which is way different than before when it was a free for all and you win some / lose some. Winning some is way better!!

Not sure where this falls into the discussion, just my $.02

DavidE

[JPinAZ]

Because you are not actually fighting?
You know, the other guy trying to knock your block off and you know it and as such you are under real pressure not to be skull humped. That kind of fighting.

Not really sure what that has to do with what I asked. I didn't ask if 'chi sau the game' was fighting, that would be silly - we both know it isn't. I asked if the things joy listed weren't part of fighting.

FWIW, chi sau the game/rolling platform, yeah, I agree, that's not fighting. But 'chi sau' overall is very much a part of fighting when it focuses on thing like (again) bridging, intercepting, range awaerness, and things like leverage control, positioning, space awareness, structure, etc. How can you work on these thing like joy puts it but then say it's not fighting?

But then, I was talking to joy anyway..

[YouKnowWho]

If 'chi sau' trains things like bridging, intercetping, understanding range then it is all about fighting! What part of those things are not fighting?

Trying to use your "glue" to stick on any moving object is very difficult. It's much easier to use "hook" to hook on a moving object to prevent it from moving away. Your "glue" may give your opponent a chance to "hook". You may not like to use hook but you cannot prevent your opponent from "hooking" on you. Your training should be able to deal with that.

Both WC Chi Shou and Taiji push hand are like you want to "touch" your girlfriend, but you don't want to "hug" her. There is something missing there. The moment that you have integrated Chi Shou with clinching, the moment that your training will be more complete.

Should this be part of your Chi Shou training too?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/444/octopus.jpg/

[LoneTiger108]

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I am not debating -just sharing a POV. Ip Man's chi sao when taught well is far more complete than
Chan Wah Sun's family chi sao and Kulo wing chun. Variations of single, double, lop sao, with footwork, stepping, lat sao, man sao, gor sao- all fitting into each other trains a wide set of attributes in some IM lineages including mine..
I accept the view that Ip man got addittional training- most likely from Leung Bik.Kulo emerged from the few villagers leung Jan briefly taught when he returned to Kulo a couple of years before he died.
Of course good people can make Fatshan wc and kulo wc work for them The wc style has it's diversities. One builds on what is available.

joy chaudhuri

I actually agree with you here Joy as you make some pretty clear points with regards to Ip Mans WCK. And from what I have seen and researched, the later variations of interactive training do seem to be missing completely in the mainland unless the Sifu is lnked to Ip Man in some way, so it makes sense that the current platform from him is more 'refined' and purpose led for developing fighting attributes.

For me personally, this exchange type of interaction is more than 'Chisau' as it actually leads into gorsau and sansau. Then there is the poonsau and looksau too. All within good Ip Man Wing Chun and all with varying purposes fme.

But again, they are all either 'doilien' or 'doichat' interactive exercises and that is the language I feel is missing these days.

So we have:

Chisau
Poonsau
Looksau
Gorsau
Sansau

and I haven't mentioned Gaosau yet lol!!