Chi-sao

[sanjuro_ronin]

That sounds less like fighting and more like a porno shoot gone horribly wrong.

Tomato, tomahto

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not really sure what that has to do with what I asked. I didn't ask if 'chi sau the game' was fighting, that would be silly - we both know it isn't. I asked if the things joy listed weren't part of fighting.

FWIW, chi sau the game/rolling platform, yeah, I agree, that's not fighting. But 'chi sau' overall is very much a part of fighting when it focuses on thing like (again) bridging, intercepting, range awaerness, and things like leverage control, positioning, space awareness, structure, etc. How can you work on these thing like joy puts it but then say it's not fighting?

But then, I was talking to joy anyway..

Honestly and simply:
Fighting is fighting. Period.
Drills and sets are not fighting, nothing other than 2 (or more) people trying to beat each other up is fighting.
Sparring CAN be fighting, if it escaltes to that point.
There must be INTENT and there MUST be resistance between all involved.
One can be training ALL the attributes need and even those present in a fight but unless you are actually fighting, you are NOT fighting.

To make it more clear and using chi sao as an example:
Chi sao would be fighting IF there was intent to beat the ass of the other person.

Chi sao is a drill, one that develops certain attributes FOR fighting, BUT these attributes MUST still be applied and perfected BY FIGHTING.

[LoneTiger108]

One can be training ALL the attributes need and even those present in a fight but unless you are actually fighting, you are NOT fighting...

... Chi sao is a drill, one that develops certain attributes FOR fighting, BUT these attributes MUST still be applied and perfected BY FIGHTING.

Hang on! Are you now actually saying that Chisau or our interactive platform actually has a use and may in fact be 'beneficial' in an actual fight??!!

Granted, your view is to 'perfect' yourself in the fight but it sounds like you are supporting Chisau as a development tool which I thought you simply disregarded?

I'm in a bit of shock

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hang on! Are you now actually saying that Chisau or our interactive platform actually has a use and may in fact be 'beneficial' in an actual fight??!!

Granted, your view is to 'perfect' yourself in the fight but it sounds like you are supporting Chisau as a development tool which I thought you simply disregarded?

I'm in a bit of shock

Why shocked?
I have always viewed chi sao as a very productive DRILL.
Much like push hands and similar drills we find in Judo, wrestling and even boxing.
I just don't believe Chi Sao to be anything more than that.
I was actually VERY good at chi sao, did the whole blind folded bit, even one handed and such.
None of that changes that it is simply a tool AT BEST.

Let me put my issue with what people have made chi sao to be in this way:
Wing Chun is quite possibly the most popular TCMA (outside of taiji) and it is supposedly a fighting style BUT we see more demos and clips of Chi sao than we do of any ACTUAL fighting.

[Vajramusti]

BUT we see more demos and clips of Chi sao than we do of any ACTUAL fighting.

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Most tournament matches are just that matches. Most fights where real hurt is intended and can and does occur are usually unfilmed.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

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Most tournament matches are just that matches. Most fights where real hurt is intended and can and does occur are usually unfilmed.

joy chaudhuri

Phil and Alan have put up videos of their students fighting.
They are the minority.
But it isn't really about putting up videos of guys competing in full contact since it is not every schools "cup of tea".
The point is that for a fighting style with so many vidoes and even instructionals out there, there is a surprising lack of actual fighting in those videos.

[JPinAZ]

(I clipped the rest because you are just stating the obvious and it really had nothing to do with what I was saying to joy - which he's so conveniently ignored)

Chi sao is a drill, one that develops certain attributes FOR fighting, BUT these attributes MUST still be applied and perfected BY FIGHTING.

If by 'chi sau' you mean taan/bong/fook rolling platform drill, then I agree with you - it is just a drill. Again, this is stating the obvious.

In HFY, 'chi sau' is a lot more than just that rolling platform - the term 'chi sau' covers all aspects of brdiging from pre-contact to engagement, to leverage control, to bridge destruction, etc (a lot of which is covered by our Kiu Sau technologies as well as Chi Kiu, which both fall under the 'chi sau' umbrella) - all of which are directly applicable and tested in fighting. IMO the t/b/f rolling platform is only one piece of the overall pie and shouldn't be where people start. fights typically dont' start squared up with both hands engaged. They typically start at precontact, so imo that is where the training should start.

I would say ALL of it is directly applicable to FIGHTING and I agree that they MUST be applied and perfected BY FIGHTING. But my point was really geared toward what exactly 'chi sau' covers. Is it just a drill/game, or is it a lot more than that? Opinions obviously vary.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If 'chi sau' trains things like bridging, intercetping, understanding range then it is all about fighting! What part of those things are not fighting?

This is what you asked right?
You asked what part of those things are not fighting, correct?
Well NONE of them are fighting.
Attributes are NOT fighting, principles and techniques are not fighting.
drills and sets are not fighting.
A boxer doing hooks, jabs, crosses, uppercuts, bob n weaving, parrying and blocking is NOT fighting UNLESS he is doing them IN a fight.
Chi sao trains all those things WITHIN the chi sao platform which is NOT fighting.
Maybe I am misunderstanding your question...
You can train everything that is pertinent to fighting but unless you ARE fighting it ISN'T fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nobody offers you a bridge, nobody gives you their arms in a predetermined manner, no one stands square to you and no one does "chi sao" with you in a fight.
You must take what you develop in the safe environment of chi sao and apply it, refine it and use it in fighting.
I recall someone saying that chi sao is like riding a bike with training wheels.
I don't like that analogy and disagree with it, BUT I see the point.

[wingchunIan]

There are plenty of ways to practice entering, loads of drills and exercises. One of the purposes of chi sau is to let you train and practice what happens next. So you enter and your wonderful highly trained punch doesn't knock the guy out, or he has the audacity to move his head and make you miss, or heaven forbid actually tries to stop you from hitting him by covering, blocking or even hitting back. Relying on set sequences or hoping to just blast away is a low percentage option. Chi sau helps to develop sensitivity so that you can develop instinctive muscle memory based reactions in response to the way the opponent moves. The poon sau rolling platform is simply a place to start that is neutral, puts you into range and has movement, once you've started the exchange going back to rolling is totally optional, but the range can vary from double arm contact to single arm contact and back again in a totally unrehearsed fashion meaning that you learn to not only feel what is going on but also to control the distance.

[Vajramusti]

Chi sao is a drill, one that develops certain attributes FOR fighting, BUT these attributes MUST still be applied and perfected BY FIGHTING.

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Sure.,, for a wc person. Others who dont have chi sao have to do other simulation.

Chi sao varies so much from what I can see- at times we are often not talking about the same thing.

Often what people call fighting is more simulation of fighting.
And round and round we go with different POVs in a chat forum.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

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Sure.,, for a wc person. Others who dont have chi sao have to do other simulation.

Chi sao varies so much from what I can see- at times we are often not talking about the same thing.

Often what people call fighting is more simulation of fighting.
And round and round we go with different POVs in a chat forum.

joy chaudhuri

Very true, sparring in of itself is NOT fighting thought I can escalte to such BUT what sparring does have above anything else that we do ( Dummy, sets, chi sao) as the element of "unpredictablity" and full resistence - we don't know what the opponent will do or how or when.
In order of highest importance in regards to what we can do to develop our fighting skills, I would say:
Fighting - Sparring - drills - chi sao- dummy- sets.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are plenty of ways to practice entering, loads of drills and exercises. One of the purposes of chi sau is to let you train and practice what happens next. So you enter and your wonderful highly trained punch doesn't knock the guy out, or he has the audacity to move his head and make you miss, or heaven forbid actually tries to stop you from hitting him by covering, blocking or even hitting back. Relying on set sequences or hoping to just blast away is a low percentage option. Chi sau helps to develop sensitivity so that you can develop instinctive muscle memory based reactions in response to the way the opponent moves. The poon sau rolling platform is simply a place to start that is neutral, puts you into range and has movement, once you've started the exchange going back to rolling is totally optional, but the range can vary from double arm contact to single arm contact and back again in a totally unrehearsed fashion meaning that you learn to not only feel what is going on but also to control the distance.

I would have issues with only this part:

Chi sau helps to develop sensitivity so that you can develop instinctive muscle memory based reactions in response to the way the opponent moves.

Why?
Because it is responding in a way that NO opponent does move in terms of what you will face in a realistic fight.

[k gledhill]

Nobody offers you a bridge, nobody gives you their arms in a predetermined manner, no one stands square to you and no one does "chi sao" with you in a fight.
You must take what you develop in the safe environment of chi sao and apply it, refine it and use it in fighting.
I recall someone saying that chi sao is like riding a bike with training wheels.
I don't like that analogy and disagree with it, BUT I see the point.

Never a truer word was spoken...er, typed.

[Vajramusti]

I would have issues with only this part:

Why?
Because it is responding in a way that NO opponent does move in terms of what you will face in a realistic fight.

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Depends on what kind of chi sao one is doing, what has been taught, learned and practiced and developed.

joy chaudhuri

PS. Chi sao can teach heightened awareness of motions of opponent(s) irrespective of their "style" and teaches you to protect against even sudden unexpected attacks from any direction.
In a "realistic fight" applied physics is there--power, acceleration, direction, timing , line, circles,
shifts, motion. Chi sao properly taught and learned is not the only possible preparation but is a great skill development tool...and teaches adjustments to real situations. IMO

joy chaudhuri