Stop deleting threads

[Happy Tiger]

Moderation is my choice, usually when a subject goes off topic it is closed, I choose on my own thread.
If I make a thread about chi-sao for example and the only comment made by a guy is "he's not wearing a shirt..." Then random takes over.....

Troll comments are tedious and deleted straight away on other forums for their lack of respect to the poster, furthering more random comments that end up creating the following image

Frost

Besides, the official uniform of VT is a golf shirt (with breast pocket), jeans and running shoes. The perfect clothing for training hard fighting. Nothing else seems right.

[GeneChing]

A Gene Ching sighting in the Wing Chun forum?

Wow, hell must be freezing over.

...Honestly, I can only discuss sil lum tao so much before I lose interest.

[LFJ]

What I was pointing out about that was that the "opportunities" and "testing" did not provide an "alive" enough environment that he was in danger of getting hit. This is not realistic training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imjmLWj5WCU

Well, I understand the necessity of aliveness in training, but I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of the drill they were doing.

The chisau drill they were running was not sparring, and they were not competing against one another. What they were doing was experimenting with their structure and principles (which we can surely criticize) in a sort of laboratory, which they can then take into more alive testing once a certain standard is reached. If something by that point is not is not working, it will be obvious and they will go back to their forms and chisau to correct it.

There doesn't need to be a danger of getting hit to make a drill useful or "alive". Much like the way WSL taught daan chisau where the partners are at a range where they cannot actually hit each other, not because they don't want to hit each other, but for the purpose of training full extension and power. The drill can still be done in an "alive" manner where one will feel the need to jamsau or bongsau, even without the danger of getting hit.

Of course, chisau can be trained in a more aggressive manner which might better fit your idea of alive training, but one does not always benefit from that if things aren't working at a more basic level.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, I understand the necessity of aliveness in training, but I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of the drill they were doing.

The chisau drill they were running was not sparring, and they were not competing against one another. What they were doing was experimenting with their structure and principles (which we can surely criticize) in a sort of laboratory, which they can then take into more alive testing once a certain standard is reached. If something by that point is not is not working, it will be obvious and they will go back to their forms and chisau to correct it.

There doesn't need to be a danger of getting hit to make a drill useful or "alive". Much like the way WSL taught daan chisau where the partners are at a range where they cannot actually hit each other, not because they don't want to hit each other, but for the purpose of training full extension and power. The drill can still be done in an "alive" manner where one will feel the need to jamsau or bongsau, even without the danger of getting hit.

Of course, chisau can be trained in a more aggressive manner which might better fit your idea of alive training, but one does not always benefit from that if things aren't working at a more basic level.

I would argue that the more basic the level the more crucial contact is ( not necessarily full contact of course) since the practitioners don't have any real point of reference to draw on in regards to how things work in actual combat.

[LFJ]

I would argue that the more basic the level the more crucial contact is ( not necessarily full contact of course) since the practitioners don't have any real point of reference to draw on in regards to how things work in actual combat.

The other reason daan chisau in WSLVT is done outside the range where contact may occur is that since you're not fully punching through your partner's head, you'll be stopping short where you can't use real power and obviously extension, and this may lead to bad habits or not really getting a sense of striking as you actually would, or feeling the necessity to defend against that sort of energy.

WSLVT daan chisau

The two guys training chisau in the earlier clip were in striking range and making contact, just not with full power as they were just checking structure and principles.

I think it's their structure and principles we should be criticizing, not that they weren't going hard or "alive" enough so the guy was not worried about keeping his glasses on. Their chisau was (I thought) obviously for a different purpose.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The other reason daan chisau in WSLVT is done outside the range where contact may occur is that since you're not fully punching through your partner's head, you'll be stopping short where you can't use real power and obviously extension, and this may lead to bad habits or not really getting a sense of striking as you actually would, or feeling the necessity to defend against that sort of energy.

WSLVT daan chisau

The two guys training chisau in the earlier clip were in striking range and making contact, just not with full power as they were just checking structure and principles.

I think it's their structure and principles we should be criticizing, not that they weren't going hard or "alive" enough so the guy was not worried about keeping his glasses on. Their chisau was (I thought) obviously for a different purpose.

You don't need to KO or even go full contact, just hard enough to make it honest.
Striking from an unrealistic distance is just as bad as pulling your strikes IMO.
IN SPM we use to do "slap" fights from an "extended" bridge (similar to chi sao), it keep things honest and no one got more than a red face or maybe a little blooded lip or nose.
You can't work on correct structure IF that structure is NOT being tested.
In a contact art the most important principle is to MAKE CONTACT and if you are not doing that, well...

[LFJ]

I can appreciate what you're saying, but chisau is not sparring, although many people take it to be the be-all and end-all of WCK.

The purpose in basic daan chisau is to become sensitive to the energy of the opponent and to feel the need to react. That's something that can be developed without needing to make contact or the danger of being hit, after all it's only a few inches out of range, still enough to make a beginner flinch.

It of course builds from there into contact drills and eventually free sparring, but imo these should not be confused.

Chisau can be trained in different manners to achieve different goals. Basic structure and principles can be checked at a lighter intensity level where there is not much danger. It's like the first section of SNT being done slowly. It's not realistic either, but it's for a certain aim that perhaps is unseen and not understood by the onlooker.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can appreciate what you're saying, but chisau is not sparring, although many people take it to be the be-all and end-all of WCK.

The purpose in basic daan chisau is to become sensitive to the energy of the opponent and to feel the need to react. That's something that can be developed without needing to make contact or the danger of being hit, after all it's only a few inches out of range, still enough to make a beginner flinch.

It of course builds from there into contact drills and eventually free sparring, but imo these should not be confused.

Chisau can be trained in different manners to achieve different goals. Basic structure and principles can be checked at a lighter intensity level where there is not much danger. It's like the first section of SNT being done slowly. It's not realistic either, but it's for a certain aim that perhaps is unseen and not understood by the onlooker.

Let me be clear that I am ONLY referring to when strikes are used in chi sao, when it escalates from a sensitivity drill to more than that.
I should have been more clear, sorry.

[Frost]

I can appreciate what you're saying, but chisau is not sparring, although many people take it to be the be-all and end-all of WCK.

The purpose in basic daan chisau is to become sensitive to the energy of the opponent and to feel the need to react. That's something that can be developed without needing to make contact or the danger of being hit, after all it's only a few inches out of range, still enough to make a beginner flinch.

It of course builds from there into contact drills and eventually free sparring, but imo these should not be confused.

Chisau can be trained in different manners to achieve different goals. Basic structure and principles can be checked at a lighter intensity level where there is not much danger. It's like the first section of SNT being done slowly. It's not realistic either, but it's for a certain aim that perhaps is unseen and not understood by the onlooker.

surely if contact is not being made and the distance being used in the drill is not the distance you would be using in a real fight, the structure would be artificial and the incoming strikes and thus the sensitivity needed to read them would also be artificial and incorrect?

the amount of times in sparring i have seen people pull up short or not hit with power because of training incorrectly in drills is too many to mention, why not simply start of correctly and ingrain good habits?

[LFJ]

surely if contact is not being made and the distance being used in the drill is not the distance you would be using in a real fight, the structure would be artificial and the incoming strikes and thus the sensitivity needed to read them would also be artificial and incorrect?

the amount of times in sparring i have seen people pull up short or not hit with power because of training incorrectly in drills is too many to mention, why not simply start of correctly and ingrain good habits?

You've kind of flip-flopped the idea. The point in extending the range is to allow for good habits of full extension and issue of power, rather than short jammed up structures with no real energy, which may cause a bad habit of stopping short or adversely affect the sense of attacking and defending with realistic intent.

I don't think extending the range in daan chisau would cause artificial sensitivity or incorrect structures, for one because the attacking side trains through full extension and realistic power, and two the defending side still feels the need to react and forms the same structure they would three inches closer.

[Frost]

You've kind of flip-flopped the idea. The point in extending the range is to allow for good habits of full extension and issue of power, rather than short jammed up structures with no real energy, which may cause a bad habit of stopping short or adversely affect the sense of attacking and defending with realistic intent.

I don't think extending the range in daan chisau would cause artificial sensitivity or incorrect structures, for one because the attacking side trains through full extension and realistic power, and two the defending side still feels the need to react and forms the same structure they would three inches closer.

how can it be realistic intent when you are not even in range to actually make any contact?

ANd you are not hitting anything so how do you know you are developing power at the full extension of your hits?
You have in reality traded one bad habit: not being able to make contact because of short range, for another: not being in range to hit the target and hitting thin air

A miss is a miss, doesn't matter if its 3 inches or ten, if you are not in range to hit your training partner he will not be able to react realistically

[Vajramusti]

Trying to keep the thread going atleast with respect to chi sao. Chi sao is pretty lineage specific because it is based on each lineage's understanding of concept, principles, lines, structure (body and hand). No such thing such as general chi sao. Having done chi sao with lots of people, I can pretty well tell what the other guys back ground is Just rolling a bit and starting to hit missed much of the
possible benefits of chi sao.
Blending chi sao with lop sao, a full range of footwork. breaking off, going in, gor sao attacks, combining with kicks- many ways to sharpen one's wing chun game, Then later taking on people from other styles in sparring. It helps to have specific reasons for doing different things.
We have seen things from KG's current PB.WSL related compadres. Among others, I have rolled with WSL and have a sense of his structure.
Snips of David P from the wsl lineage has appeared here. So has Gary Lam. Barry Lee-WSL's ex brother in law does very good WSL relted chi sao.Here is an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr59XqhFgr4

Most of my wc brothers and sisters generally seem to chi sao more than most WSL people thatI have seen and not rushing into atatcking--- sharpening things like timing, distance, structure and balance.
One can practice two person man sao semi sparring without gloves and work on different things as well including throwing, and qinna...depending on levels of achievement.

Just as tui shou is good taiji's gift to TCMA, good chi sao is wing chun's gift-if well done.
Pics of chi sao give some limited views of what goes on but actually doing it gives you so much finer sense and listening skills.
Just informing, not arguing or engaging in one up manship.

joy chaudhuri

[Sihing73]

Okay guys I put the thread back up.

Please keep it on track and discuss Chi Sau not shirtless boys or men.

Oh, here is something which adds new meaning to the "Goat Riding Stance"

[LFJ]

how can it be realistic intent when you are not even in range to actually make any contact?

"Realistic" doesn't mean "real", but is based on what is real.

Because you are going through full extension and releasing power, whereas, if you are in range to make contact you stop way short and pull your punch so as not to injure your training partner.

Of these two, the first is done with "realistic" intent, going fully through the motion and striking hard. Because the contact point is going to be at the middle of the punch, and then follow through to full extension, as you would actually punch.

It may not be real intent because it is still a practice drill and we aren't really trying to hit each other, but it is at least realistic intent. If you practice in contact range but always pull, ending in a jammed up position, you will never be practicing a full strike. That obviously can be neither real nor realistic intent.

ANd you are not hitting anything so how do you know you are developing power at the full extension of your hits?

Here is not where you develop power, like on a wall bag or focus mitt. But you are issuing power, in that you have no reason to pull your punch all the time.

You have in reality traded one bad habit: not being able to make contact because of short range, for another: not being in range to hit the target and hitting thin air

The empty hand forms all have punches in them that strike into thin air. Is this creating a bad habit too? I would say no, because you are there working on the structure of a complete strike. There are other areas of training where we hit things, like the wall bag and focus mitts. And in daan chisau we are never pulling punches, so we create a habit of always throwing a full strike.

A miss is a miss, doesn't matter if its 3 inches or ten, if you are not in range to hit your training partner he will not be able to react realistically

Have you ever tried daan chisau from the extended range that WSL taught? If you do you will feel it. Because your partner is launching a fully extended and powerful strike, you will feel the need to jamsau or bongsau, even if it misses by a few inches, which happens in fighting often.

If something is a foot away you may not need to defend against it. But at a few inches it's hard to tell, so you must defend. Also if you make a mistake and your balance is affected, it is still possible to get hit in this drill.

[Frost]

"Realistic" doesn't mean "real", but is based on what is real.

Because you are going through full extension and releasing power, whereas, if you are in range to make contact you stop way short and pull your punch so as not to injure your training partner.

Of these two, the first is done with "realistic" intent, going fully through the motion and striking hard. Because the contact point is going to be at the middle of the punch, and then follow through to full extension, as you would actually punch.

It may not be real intent because it is still a practice drill and we aren't really trying to hit each other, but it is at least realistic intent. If you practice in contact range but always pull, ending in a jammed up position, you will never be practicing a full strike. That obviously can be neither real nor realistic intent.



Here is not where you develop power, like on a wall bag or focus mitt. But you are issuing power, in that you have no reason to pull your punch all the time.



The empty hand forms all have punches in them that strike into thin air. Is this creating a bad habit too? I would say no, because you are there working on the structure of a complete strike. There are other areas of training where we hit things, like the wall bag and focus mitts. And in daan chisau we are never pulling punches, so we create a habit of always throwing a full strike.



Have you ever tried daan chisau from the extended range that WSL taught? If you do you will feel it. Because your partner is launching a fully extended and powerful strike, you will feel the need to jamsau or bongsau, even if it misses by a few inches, which happens in fighting often.

If something is a foot away you may not need to defend against it. But at a few inches it's hard to tell, so you must defend. Also if you make a mistake and your balance is affected, it is still possible to get hit in this drill.

realistic intent to me means actually intending to hit the target, if you are not intending to hit them then its as bad as pulling your shots short, worse probably because at least when you pull them short you are in correct range and thus their is some fear of things going wrong, if you are outside range you can get very good at throwing shots that look good but which dont hit

hitting a bag and hitting a person are two different things, structure is the first thing to go once contact is made, hence the only real way to practise it is with contact in drills to pressure test that structure.
We can see this in the Yip man festival video from fatsan: as soon as real contact was made in the sparring or chisau clips everything else went out of the window and it became sparring at a longer range than they started at, so why not teach drills that have contact and that get you used to making contact at the range you want to be at?
Another point is that without making contact during the drills you dont have any feel for the opponent, the distance you need to hit in order to make real impact, how the strike can miss, slip or glance off at certain angles , its akin to sparring but not allowing contact, it makes you feel good because you can throw full power shots without the fear of getting hit, but without that fear the drill is largely meaningless.
The hardest thing to do to get beginners used to getting into the range you need to be at in order to hit and to stay there, its natural to hang out at a longer range because its safer, and that is what it appears to me to be ingraining in the student, an unnatural distance but hey thats just my view

Now you might say that sparring and contact happens, but the amount of videos posted that show drills like this is legion, the amount showing hard contact less so, and when they are posted, like the fatshan clips, alan orrs stuff or Phils stuff, people tend to comment it looks nothing like the real wing chun