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[LFJ]

realistic intent to me means actually intending to hit the target

That would be real intent, in agreement with the word 'actual' in your definition. If you actually intend to hit the target, then if your partner makes a mistake you will not pull your punch and really knock them out. Is that how you drill?

Realistic would be as in the way a duck hunter's decoy is realistic, but certainly not real. A realistic intent would likewise simulate the full extension and issue of power of a real attacker, but wouldn't actually be real.

I take it you have never tried the extended range daan chisau as WSL taught it. The only thing needed to make it real would just be to inch forward, not alter the structure, actually extend, and issue power- major changes that would be necessary otherwise.

[JPinAZ]

how can it be realistic intent when you are not even in range to actually make any contact?

ANd you are not hitting anything so how do you know you are developing power at the full extension of your hits?
You have in reality traded one bad habit: not being able to make contact because of short range, for another: not being in range to hit the target and hitting thin air

A miss is a miss, doesn't matter if its 3 inches or ten, if you are not in range to hit your training partner he will not be able to react realistically

I'm with Frost on this one. I agree with the fact that it takes away from the 'realism' if you aren't trying to hit your opponent, or at the range to even be able too (at least from a chi sau perspective). To take it one step further, if you're out of range to even make contact with your opponent when you strike, you are technically out of taan/bong/fook chi sau range. With that in mind, the drill shouldn't even be starting with those tools because you are really outside the timeframe where those tools are applicable. (unless you stepped in with the attack of course)

Besides all of that, I don't see a problem with closer range T/B/F daan chi sau where each person can reach the other and using higher energy. If both sides understand the tools and the ranges they work in (understanding the structure, leverage points, correct energy, etc), then they should be able to neutralize the attacks without getting hit. And then there's the times you won't and you'll simply get hit... as happens in live training.

Dislcaimer: In saying the above, I don't mean anything against D.Peterson or WSLVT, just that my understanding of chi sau is different based on my experience. One key point I agree 100% on with David in the clip is the need for the inside attacker to attack to the high reference/face area, as well as the consequences he pointed to if you don't!

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Frost;1170786]realistic intent to me means actually intending to hit the target, if you are not intending to hit them then its as bad as pulling your shots short, worse probably because at least when you pull them short you are in correct range and thus their is some fear of things going wrong, if you are outside range you can get very good at throwing shots that look good but which dont hit

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David Petersen and WSL (see youtube and wsl's dan chi sao)are doing it right.The palm points to the target and the power is released.
It is not a pulling back. It's a part of step by step skill building. ..a springy full release with aim and structure and timing and control...not a muscular pushing power.

Of course- you can hit as well. If you agree to do it that way . But it is important to first develop certain attributes and skills and a working physical understanding of them.

But good wing chun involves layer by layer skill development. One cannot judge a complete picture by observing a brush stroke.

joy chaudhuri

[wingchunIan]

for those saying that chi sau should include heavier contact, i'd say that it's a personal choice if both partners are equal level. But I emphasise the word partner. Chi sau is not fighting and its not sparring. You should feel comfortable enough to try things in chi sau, to experiment with what you've learned, not feel that if you get it wrong you'll lose your teeth. If you only ever train to hit no one learns anything other than fear of trying anything and what it feels like to get hit.

[Happy Tiger]

If there's any preperation to be made, including feinting, drawing and leading ( the basis for much of chi sau variety), better to do it in the pre contact 'safety' range. Once contact is made and there is a strong intent to strike/attack with simplicity and directness... if structure is sound, not much can really happen.In real combat, trying to feint, draw or lead while in this quicksilver state is usually a dangerous waste of time and energy.When the hand is free, hit instinctively. So much trapping and round abouts in chi sau, simply can't happen unless there is an opening created or alowed for the sake of development of chi sau skills or something 'wing chunny' to happen. I don't even think in terms of range much any more. In real fighting, often the 'trapping' chi sau range is zipped by in an instant. For me the trapping range is just a quick junction to other things. This area we spend countless hours only in. More hard, full protection sparring with the wrestling and grappleing range in wilfull access. Where's the VT? This is why in real hand to hand all over the world, there just isn't too much (some but not too much) opportunity for trapping unungst good fighters.I like what Vajramusti said about the palms pointing to target.('holding the pearl' as sifu Li Man Kit says.) This is a basic must for good chi sau.

[Wayfaring]

for those saying that chi sau should include heavier contact, i'd say that it's a personal choice if both partners are equal level.

You can do it that way. But to clarify, I'm not saying chi sau should include heavier contact. I'm saying it should not consist of the bulk of your fighting training. It should be relegated to maybe 50/50 with sparring as a beginner, and as you progress should drop off to 20/80. (50/50 meaning 50% of time chi sau, 50% of time free sparring).

But I emphasise the word partner. Chi sau is not fighting and its not sparring. You should feel comfortable enough to try things in chi sau, to experiment with what you've learned, not feel that if you get it wrong you'll lose your teeth.

Agree.

If you only ever train to hit no one learns anything other than fear of trying anything and what it feels like to get hit.

Sounds like someone who tried to spar once with somebody hitting them pretty hard. No - that's not how to train.

Start with complete free movement lighter contact then work your way to heavier contact. As you do that, getting hit harder, which at the start will completely eliminate any form of strategy or orientation, after a while it will be routine and will not impede your strategy.

[wingchunIan]

Sounds like someone who tried to spar once with somebody hitting them pretty hard. No - that's not how to train.

Start with complete free movement lighter contact then work your way to heavier contact. As you do that, getting hit harder, which at the start will completely eliminate any form of strategy or orientation, after a while it will be routine and will not impede your strategy.

I've been hit very hard many times in sparring but what i was referring to was more the fact that many people seem to miss the point of chi sau and focus too much on contact.
As for sparring with increasingly heavier contact, my take is different. Yes you need to not freeze when you get hit but that's easy to learn very quickly, the aim should be to minimise the times you get hit despite increasing intensity rather than learning to take a shot. In the street feeling comfortable taking a shot can lead to complacency and get you killed.

[Wayfaring]

Yes you need to not freeze when you get hit but that's easy to learn very quickly,

No, no it is not. For instance, Brock Lesnar never really learned this.

the aim should be to minimise the times you get hit despite increasing intensity rather than learning to take a shot.

The problem with that theory is that when people are not conditioned to move correctly under hard contact they all tend to do the same thing - throw up the hands and move back in a straight line. That typical reaction will maximize the times you get hit.

In the street feeling comfortable taking a shot can lead to complacency and get you killed.

IN DA STREET ??????

[Robinhood]

It is like playing Rock, paper, scissors game with only rocks.



Cheers

[Frost]

That would be real intent, in agreement with the word 'actual' in your definition. If you actually intend to hit the target, then if your partner makes a mistake you will not pull your punch and really knock them out. Is that how you drill?

Realistic would be as in the way a duck hunter's decoy is realistic, but certainly not real. A realistic intent would likewise simulate the full extension and issue of power of a real attacker, but wouldn't actually be real.

I take it you have never tried the extended range daan chisau as WSL taught it. The only thing needed to make it real would just be to inch forward, not alter the structure, actually extend, and issue power- major changes that would be necessary otherwise.

Nope how we drill is from a distance that you can make contact from, contact doesnt have to be full contact (a common response and mistake made by people who dont allow it to be honest, they cant see there's a logical progression to contact from light to full) because without correct distance everything else is build on a false base
without actual contact or fear of contact intent is not real, and the testing of the structure is false because in my experience the first time you actually allow contact and both parties know they are going to get hit, structure is the first thing to go

[LFJ]

Nope how we drill is from a distance that you can make contact from, contact doesnt have to be full contact (a common response and mistake made by people who dont allow it to be honest, they cant see there's a logical progression to contact from light to full) because without correct distance everything else is build on a false base
without actual contact or fear of contact intent is not real, and the testing of the structure is false because in my experience the first time you actually allow contact and both parties know they are going to get hit, structure is the first thing to go

Just to clarify, it's only daan chisau practiced in that extended range, so beginners can make good habits of striking fully, but still have a simple sensitivity/reaction drill. It gets into a more realistic range after that, once coordination in both hands is not a problem anymore and some sensitivity is developed. Seung chisau is never done in that range.

[wingchunIan]

Just to clarify, it's only daan chisau practiced in that extended range, so beginners can make good habits of striking fully, but still have a simple sensitivity/reaction drill. It gets into a more realistic range after that, once coordination in both hands is not a problem anymore and some sensitivity is developed. Seung chisau is never done in that range.

Interesting to see the difference in approach to dan chi sau. We do the exercise at a range where contact can be made but teach that going to extension is wrong as you should be learning to switch off the shots as soon as they meet resistance. In this way not only does the defender develop sensitivity but so too does the attacker, providing the first building block in developing the ability to flow round defences rather than trying to blast through.

[Happy Tiger]

Interesting to see the difference in approach to dan chi sau. We do the exercise at a range where contact can be made but teach that going to extension is wrong as you should be learning to switch off the shots as soon as they meet resistance. In this way not only does the defender develop sensitivity but so too does the attacker, providing the first building block in developing the ability to flow round defences rather than trying to blast through.

Daan Chi Sau is so valuable. Too bad so many quit it early. Multiple person attack, Chuen sau (threading hand) skills...damaged or broken limb recovery or defence. I try to do dan chi sau as often as possible. Nothing is as sweet as one hand controling two. Nothing develops this as well as good ol' daan chi sau.Daan chi sau extends the 'sphere' of defense significantly.

[LoneTiger108]

Daan Chi Sau is so valuable. Too bad so many quit it early. Multiple person attack, Chuen sau (threading hand) skills...damaged or broken limb recovery or defence. I try to do dan chi sau as often as possible. Nothing is as sweet as one hand controling two. Nothing develops this as well as good ol' daan chi sau.Daan chi sau extends the 'sphere' of defense significantly.

I so agree with the importance of a fully developed single hand interactive practice. It is what the whole of our first form is about in the beginning.

[Ali. R]

Daan Chi Sau is so valuable. Too bad so many quit it early. Multiple person attack, Chuen sau (threading hand) skills...damaged or broken limb recovery or defence. I try to do dan chi sau as often as possible. Nothing is as sweet as one hand controling two. Nothing develops this as well as good ol' daan chi sau.Daan chi sau extends the 'sphere' of defense significantly.

One can really take the don chi sao to another level from simply using every weapon -or- structure within the ‘Sil Lum Tao’ form and while using a moving stance you can really feel the energy spreading through your upper, lower extremities as it moves into the floor (when done right).

We’re all in such a hurry that the most important and simplest things go waaay over our heads from spending very little time in Sil Lum Tao; it should be mastered and not just studied (SLT).

Cheers,