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Thread: Chi Sao - Structure

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ali. R View Post
    This may vary from different wing chun families
    1. Tan-sao: The shoulders of the tan-sao should always stay or be rounded. The elbows should be/stay chummed out (sink naturally to lowest point without losing good structure). The palm of the tan-sao should line up with your solar plexus /breast plate and sometimes lower. The thumb should remain tucked to use the natural tendon energy (ging-lik-sao). Start off with the thumb relaxed, the more pressure you get, the tighter the thumb becomes, but keep the rest of the arm relaxed, it also helps to support the strength of the tan-sao structure with a minimum use of muscles as long as the elbows have chum and continue to have forward energy and maintain the correct line that the structure is occupying.

    2. Bong-Sao: Since the bong-sao is on the same side as the tan-sao and also working in the same cycle, it only seems natural to use the wrist as an axle as you move from tan-sao to bong-sao. As you change from tan-sao to bong-sao the elbow rolls up and the thumb releases from its tuck, all of the fingers relax except for the pinky while the palm faces your opponent. Do not stretch out the pinky, instead line it up with the forearm naturally and remember to keep the other fingers relaxed. While using this technique (pinky and fingers) the natural tendon use of the bong-sao will naturally come to life. This way you can stay fairly soft in developing your chi-sao approach with minimum use of muscles. As you use the bong in the cycle, the movement will resemble a drill bit rotating from the wrist. Using the forward energy from the elbow as it moves into place (natural energy only, no force).

    3. Low-Fook: The structure of the low-fook is similar to that of the tan-sao except the fingers are pointed down naturally. With the fingers pointed down the pinky side of the forearm feeds the centerline. The fingers should be dipped straight downward and the shoulders should be/stay rounded. If the elbow is chummed out, and you give slightly forward energy on your fook-sao (forward elbow energy) and as long as you hold the proper line theory, the pinky side of the forearm should jam, wedge or slice any offensive attacks. Always use the simplest approach possible.

    4. High-Fook: The high-fook is the same as the low-fook but you are defending lines going to higher gates. Therefore with the high-fook you can mainly control a high offensive line just by keeping the pinky side of the forearm cutting into the structure of your chi-sao partner and keeping fingers of the fook-sao dipped and relaxed at all times (pointing towards to the ground) still using forward elbow energy.
    This is all completely different to our thinking....

  2. #17
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    I’ve kanda figured it would

    We try to promote the softest approach while holding correct structures and while using ‘jing lik sao’ (tendon energies). Tendons cannot be seen or felt right away, because they are much smaller than muscles; about 1000 times smaller but three times stronger than muscles.

    The normal man’s muscles began to stretch or give way @ just over 500lbs, but the tendons start to give way @ well over a ton, which only makes sense to use proper structures while playing ‘chi sao’, because the tendons are closer to the bone than the muscles.

  3. #18
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    Great post...i love your explanation on energy and how the techniques should feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by ali. R View Post
    this may vary from different wing chun families
    1. Tan-sao: The shoulders of the tan-sao should always stay or be rounded. The elbows should be/stay chummed out (sink naturally to lowest point without losing good structure). The palm of the tan-sao should line up with your solar plexus /breast plate and sometimes lower. The thumb should remain tucked to use the natural tendon energy (ging-lik-sao). Start off with the thumb relaxed, the more pressure you get, the tighter the thumb becomes, but keep the rest of the arm relaxed, it also helps to support the strength of the tan-sao structure with a minimum use of muscles as long as the elbows have chum and continue to have forward energy and maintain the correct line that the structure is occupying.

    2. Bong-sao: Since the bong-sao is on the same side as the tan-sao and also working in the same cycle, it only seems natural to use the wrist as an axle as you move from tan-sao to bong-sao. As you change from tan-sao to bong-sao the elbow rolls up and the thumb releases from its tuck, all of the fingers relax except for the pinky while the palm faces your opponent. Do not stretch out the pinky, instead line it up with the forearm naturally and remember to keep the other fingers relaxed. While using this technique (pinky and fingers) the natural tendon use of the bong-sao will naturally come to life. This way you can stay fairly soft in developing your chi-sao approach with minimum use of muscles. As you use the bong in the cycle, the movement will resemble a drill bit rotating from the wrist. Using the forward energy from the elbow as it moves into place (natural energy only, no force).

    3. Low-fook: The structure of the low-fook is similar to that of the tan-sao except the fingers are pointed down naturally. With the fingers pointed down the pinky side of the forearm feeds the centerline. The fingers should be dipped straight downward and the shoulders should be/stay rounded. If the elbow is chummed out, and you give slightly forward energy on your fook-sao (forward elbow energy) and as long as you hold the proper line theory, the pinky side of the forearm should jam, wedge or slice any offensive attacks. Always use the simplest approach possible.

    4. High-fook: The high-fook is the same as the low-fook but you are defending lines going to higher gates. Therefore with the high-fook you can mainly control a high offensive line just by keeping the pinky side of the forearm cutting into the structure of your chi-sao partner and keeping fingers of the fook-sao dipped and relaxed at all times (pointing towards to the ground) still using forward elbow energy.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ali. R View Post
    We try to promote the softest approach while holding correct structures and while using ‘jing lik sao’ (tendon energies). Tendons cannot be seen or felt right away, because they are much smaller than muscles; about 1000 times smaller but three times stronger than muscles.

    The normal man’s muscles began to stretch or give way @ just over 500lbs, but the tendons start to give way @ well over a ton, which only makes sense to use proper structures while playing ‘chi sao’, because the tendons are closer to the bone than the muscles.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    Shoot me, shoot me now.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  6. #21
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    I could help understand if you tell me what’s confusing you, because I’m sure you’re not into suicide, but only want to find the out what I’m saying. I’m not trying to confuse people intentionally, please forgive if that happed.

    Anyone with over 10 good years or experience sometimes a little less (with a good teacher) can truly relate or knows this, because there’s nothing new in what I’m saying here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ali. R View Post
    We try to promote the softest approach while holding correct structures and while using ‘jing lik sao’ (tendon energies). Tendons cannot be seen or felt right away, because they are much smaller than muscles; about 1000 times smaller but three times stronger than muscles.

    The normal man’s muscles began to stretch or give way @ just over 500lbs, but the tendons start to give way @ well over a ton, which only makes sense to use proper structures while playing ‘chi sao’, because the tendons are closer to the bone than the muscles.
    This is what I want you to do to prove what I’m saying is real:

    Put a good/proper ‘tao sao’ structure in front of you and let your partner push or pull it or move it from left to right without the thumb being tucked, then try it while tucking the thumb and with very little muscle mass ‘jing lik sao’, the more pressure you get the tighter you make the thumb, then all will –or- should come into fruition.

    The energies/control that you feel while doing this test are the energies that we use consistently when fighting or playing ‘chi sao’ because we fight mostly with the ulna and radius and not the hands, because the hand is nothing until the moment of impact. I’m sorry, I think I’m putting a little too much out there; as far as replies goes.

    Forgive me,

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali. R View Post
    we fight mostly with the ulna and radius and not the hands, because the hand is nothing until the moment of impact.
    If your forearm can touch your opponent's forearm, your hand can grab and pull your opponent's wrist, and punch his face with another hand at that moment. Since your hand has to pass your opponent's wrist (outer gate) in order to allow your forearm to touch your opponent's forearm (middle gate), what do you mean "the hand is nothing until the moment of impact"?
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-29-2012 at 02:38 PM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    If your forearm can touch your opponent's forearm, your hand can grab and pull your opponent's wrist, and punch his face with another hand at that moment. Since your hand has to pass your opponent's wrist (outer gate) in order to allow your forearm to touch your opponent's forearm (middle gate), what do you mean "the hand is nothing until the moment of impact"?
    If our hands are put into the position to touch another’s forearm and if we decide to move structures with our fingers or palm first, and not use the ulna and radius (the pinky & thumb side of the forearm), our hands will only become tight/stiff upon the execution of application.

    Therefore when the hands/fingers become tight the arm gets tight, and when the arm gets tight the torso become tight as well, causing stress within one’s overall structure; ringing true to the measure of: “The hand is nothing until the moment of impact”.

    Always keeping the hands lose/relaxed; and full of dynamite and not preoccupied with intentions or applications, which can be easily read against you (sensitivity).

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