Tan, bong and fuk

[Gowgee]

Hi there!

I've read several claims stating that TAN, BONG and FUK are the three most important hands in wing chun. Can someone explain why of all the hands practiced in wing chun, these are said to be the most important?

[stonecrusher69]

Hi there!

I've read several claims stating that TAN, BONG and FUK are the three most important hands in wing chun. Can someone explain why of all the hands practiced in wing chun, these are said to be the most important?

Tan, Bong and fok are thew basic hands used. a lot of the other hands revolve around them. It would be hard to use WC without Tan,Bong and FOk. In Chi sao it would almost impossible to practice without them. Try this dont use tan bong fok at all then answer your own question.

[Gowgee]

Tan, Bong and fok are thew basic hands used. a lot of the other hands revolve around them. It would be hard to use WC without Tan,Bong and FOk. In Chi sao it would almost impossible to practice without them. Try this dont use tan bong fok at all then answer your own question.

Thanks Stonecrusher.

That's a fair enough comment, but tan could be biu couldn't it? and why fuk instead of gum or wu sao for example? Could we say that "sao" here reflects the arm position rather than merely the hand?

[Matt_WCK]

From my understanding (and many lines/styles of Wing Chun have differing views), Tan, Bong and Fuk are vitally important concepts within Wing Chun. While the hand structures are important, understanding how and why they work and what they are for is far more important.

Tan - dispersing/spreading. Tan Sau and related structures work to spread away an opponent's energy from your centre allowing you access. They can be used on either gate but the fundamentals remain the same. Basically think inside to out or from your centre to outside your centre (the hand doesn't move sideways but your body structures 'encourages' your opponent to like a snow plough moves snow to the sides but is only going forwards).

Bong - commonly translated as Wing arm but refers more to the upper arm bone. This is Wing Chun's swiss army knife and it is a transitional structure fundamental in safely changing one arm position to another. First form shows a basic tan/bong rotation which is then used extensively in chi sau. Lap Sau drill (or bong/lap drill) uses a bong/punch rotation while second form introduces three different bongs covering - in-contact bong rotation (bong to lap and bong to lan sau), out-of-contact bong to cover a gap and gain a bridge (pau bong) and low bong (di bong) which is used to jam the mid-low gate. Bong can commonly become an elbow press or strike also. The key thing is that bong sau does not remain as is, rather it always becomes something else.

Fuk - detaining arm. The Fuk sau concept is to basically 'cover' or 'swallow' an opponent's structures enabling access to their centre. Commonly used as a defense or check (as in chi sau) but as with all Wing Chun, think of it as an attack or attack enabler. Fuk sau is, in many ways, the opposite of tan in that it works from the outside-in.

So - from those three ideas or seeds (covering from inside to out/covering from outside to in and safely changing one arm position to another), the rest of Wing Chun grows. The actual hand structures are only part of it.

[Matt_WCK]

Thanks Stonecrusher.

That's a fair enough comment, but tan could be biu couldn't it? and why fuk instead of gum or wu sao for example? Could we say that "sao" here reflects the arm position rather than merely the hand?

Additionally, when you look at Tan as being a concept demonstrated by a technique rather than just a technique - your example of a Biu Sau (presumably used to drive through the centre, forcing the opponent to slide down the outside of your arm?) - this is a tan concept biu sau similar to dispersing or exluding punches (which can also be fuk-concept punches when used on the outside gate).

Referring to your definition of "sau" - i'm no linguist but from my studies in Mandarin and Cantonese, I believe that shou/sau can be used to describe either the arm as a unit or the hand specifically, depending on context. The majority of Wing Chun techniques are driven from the elbow with little emphasis on the hand itself (going back to the snow plough - the forearm/hand is the plough itself - it does it's job due to it's shape. The rest of the body, delivered through the elbow, is the vehicle which pushes the plough).

Hope this sheds some light!

[Gowgee]

Thanks Matt, that was greatly educational!

[WC1277]

Additionally, when you look at Tan as being a concept demonstrated by a technique rather than just a technique - your example of a Biu Sau (presumably used to drive through the centre, forcing the opponent to slide down the outside of your arm?) - this is a tan concept biu sau similar to dispersing or exluding punches (which can also be fuk-concept punches when used on the outside gate).

Referring to your definition of "sau" - i'm no linguist but from my studies in Mandarin and Cantonese, I believe that shou/sau can be used to describe either the arm as a unit or the hand specifically, depending on context. The majority of Wing Chun techniques are driven from the elbow with little emphasis on the hand itself (going back to the snow plough - the forearm/hand is the plough itself - it does it's job due to it's shape. The rest of the body, delivered through the elbow, is the vehicle which pushes the plough).

Hope this sheds some light!

That's actually a decent explanation Matt. Who are you training under if you don't mind me asking?

[Matt_WCK]

That's actually a decent explanation Matt. Who are you training under if you don't mind me asking?

I'm a wanderer in the Wing Chun wilderness - my job means that I move very frequently but I have been fortunate to have one-to-one training from people in the Sam Kwok clan and also the WSL method in addition to doing the rounds in a number of different clubs and the usual seminars/workshops across the UK.

Bizarrely, I learned most of what I understand about Wing Chun by moving away from it and learning other systems (Jujitsu, JKD and taijiquan); it made me examine why Wing Chun does what it does.

There is a fairly big martial arts community in the forces so I do a lot of cross training with guys from other styles so I've played Wing Chun against kickboxers, MMA, TKD, karate etc. The Kendo guys really liked BJD

[ShaolinDan]

Hi there!

I've read several claims stating that TAN, BONG and FUK are the three most important hands in wing chun. Can someone explain why of all the hands practiced in wing chun, these are said to be the most important?

I don't know anything about Wing Chun, but it sounds like a great summer to me!








(I'm sorry...I know it's obnoxious, but sometimes the set-up is just too good to resist..."If I don't do it, someone else will.")

[WC1277]

I'm a wanderer in the Wing Chun wilderness - my job means that I move very frequently but I have been fortunate to have one-to-one training from people in the Sam Kwok clan and also the WSL method in addition to doing the rounds in a number of different clubs and the usual seminars/workshops across the UK.

Bizarrely, I learned most of what I understand about Wing Chun by moving away from it and learning other systems (Jujitsu, JKD and taijiquan); it made me examine why Wing Chun does what it does.

There is a fairly big martial arts community in the forces so I do a lot of cross training with guys from other styles so I've played Wing Chun against kickboxers, MMA, TKD, karate etc. The Kendo guys really liked BJD

Very cool. How'd your WC fair against those other practitioners?

[Matt_WCK]

Very cool. How'd your WC fair against those other practitioners?

Nothing I found convinced me to change arts so I still practice Wing Chun and have gained some eager students from other styles. Wing Chun works for me - simple as that, even on the ground against BJJ and MMA guys although I was instantly disqualified from a 'self defence' competition once for being too violent (and I toned it down)! I found that I really had to get in quick, past the kicks, and not play tag with people who were much better at that kind of thing. Each art is great at what it does, what you have to do is play to your strengths and not let them play to theirs (which is exactly what they are trying to do also).

[guy b.]

You lost the eager crowd at the point where your wing chun worked on the ground against ground grappling specialists. You have to keep these things within the realms of possibility

[Lee Chiang Po]

Pak, tan, and fok is more accurate. Bong is an emergency technique, where if the hand or arm is out of position for service the bong comes into play. It is not something to be used as an initial defense were pak, tan, or fok can be used. These are actually concepts rather than a simple defense technique. Entire fighting systems can be built around any of them. It has been done and people have been nicknamed for them.
Tan, fok, and bong are used in the chi sao game people like to play.

[WC1277]

Pak, tan, and fok is more accurate. Bong is an emergency technique, where if the hand or arm is out of position for service the bong comes into play. It is not something to be used as an initial defense were pak, tan, or fok can be used. These are actually concepts rather than a simple defense technique. Entire fighting systems can be built around any of them. It has been done and people have been nicknamed for them.
Tan, fok, and bong are used in the chi sao game people like to play.

Incorrect sir. I don't think you understood what was being said. There's three main families of movement. Pak sau is not one of them. In fact, Pak sau is within the fok family. What Matt said made perfect sense but then again, within my line Fong Sifu has gone over this before.

[Vajramusti]

Incorrect sir. I don't think you understood what was being said. There's three main families of movement. Pak sau is not one of them. In fact, Pak sau is within the fok family. What Matt said made perfect sense but then again, within my line Fong Sifu has gone over this before.

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Yup.
Conceptually,Wing chun motions can be well classified under bong, fok and tan families of motions- that is why they can be called the three seeds. Pak is a fok family motion.

joy chaudhuri