Tan, bong and fuk

[sanjuro_ronin]

Amazing to me that an art that springs from one root can have so many varied branches.

Like life some nurture and grow and others die.

Said it before and will say it again. If anyone had the one true way then they would be wiping the floor with everyone else and be obviously superior.

Since that is not the case it leads me to wonder why something as simple as understanding the energy of Bong as opossed to Pak can be so diverse and potentially misleading.

I mean I would think that the core basics would remain somewhat consistent when drinking from the same source.

Hmmmm here is my new POV. The energy of Bong and Pak are the same as they all make use of the human body. Thus the human kinetics is the key and all energy is one and the same.

See now we can all agree, unless someone wants to argue that the human body provides different energy for their approach than everyone else

I THINK they are trying to say that how that energy is EXPRESSED is different.

[Wayfaring]

I don't think bong and pak energy are the same either. We use 2 bongs with different energies and neither are similar to pak. To me the bong arm shape doesn't have structure in that direction so I wouldn't use it that way - very awkward movement with little structure, so it doesn't fit to me.

However, if someone can make it work in fighting then add it as a possibility to the arsenal. In grappling we have a term called a "lower percentage submission". This is a sub which catches noobs and white belts, and it doesn't work well on higher than blue. To me that's the category that a side to side pak motion with a bong sau applies to. At least to me.

[k gledhill]

You have to have the energy expressed to appreciate the value of the technique. The whole tactical approach becomes clearly evident when you see the results of ballistic force on a resisting opponent The science of fighting

Bong is a technique that need to be 100% if we use it, ergo mindless chi-sao reps

[Sihing73]

You have to have the energy expressed to appreciate the value of the technique. The whole tactical approach becomes clearly evident when you see the results of ballistic force on a resisting opponent The science of fighting

Bong is a technique that need to be 100% if we use it, ergo mindless chi-sao reps

Hmm so are you saying that those who do things differently have never experienced this energy expression? Does this mean that only a select few have the training and understanding of how to apply the techniques and energy correctly?

I would agree that Bong is either good or bad. If done properly it is an excellent technique. If done badly it is worthless.

So, do you advocate using the Bong as a forceful technique? Does the Bong Shape form of its own accord or as a result of energy given to it? If of energy given to it how can it also be like Pak? I am actually interested in your answers but not if they are without substance.

[k gledhill]

Hmm so are you saying that those who do things differently have never experienced this energy expression? Does this mean that only a select few have the training and understanding of how to apply the techniques and energy correctly?

I would agree that Bong is either good or bad. If done properly it is an excellent technique. If done badly it is worthless.

So, do you advocate using the Bong as a forceful technique? Does the Bong Shape form of its own accord or as a result of energy given to it? If of energy given to it how can it also be like Pak? I am actually interested in your answers but not if they are without substance.

Bong shouldnt be a reliant on another to create it, thats a chi-sao warrior thinking. You use it IN chi-sao to develop it for fighting out of chi-sao drills.
You use it with ballistic force like a pak sao to displace a bridge, not create it. I want to hit you not feel your intentions.

did you see the clip ?

[Sihing73]

Hm, so in your view Bong is created on its own, would that be correct?

So if I am understanding you correctly; you use Bong to disrupt an opponents structure much like Pak or Gaun. Is that correct?

Why would you use the shap of Bong to cause disruption? Aren't there other shapes more accessible which serve the same purpose and do not put your arm in an unnatural position?

So the Bong in the Dummy form, as you do it, is used to exert force akin to striking, would this be correct?

The low Bong Saus in the forms are they also used to disrupt? If so, again why the distinct shape?

What I am getting at is why Bong, what causes the shape and energy of Bong and why use it when other shapes are more natural and accessible?

[k gledhill]

Hm, so in your view Bong is created on its own, would that be correct?

So if I am understanding you correctly; you use Bong to disrupt an opponents structure much like Pak or Gaun. Is that correct?

Why would you use the shap of Bong to cause disruption? Aren't there other shapes more accessible which serve the same purpose and do not put your arm in an unnatural position?

So the Bong in the Dummy form, as you do it, is used to exert force akin to striking, would this be correct?

The low Bong Saus in the forms are they also used to disrupt? If so, again why the distinct shape?

What I am getting at is why Bong, what causes the shape and energy of Bong and why use it when other shapes are more natural and accessible?

The elbow of the bong is the critical part, raising the elbow of thebong so you slap a punch to opposite ears. This enables you to attack forwards while making a punch go past your face either side.
The low bong on the dummy is to develop the sharp slapping force. The height of bong is only relevant to the arm your using it on and yours, same energy , same tactical purpose. Displacing a bridge.

The low bongs in the form are purely to create sharp rotational force to the center line, but you only use one at a time fighting obviously, at the required height of the interaction. Once you get it you will injure your students so take care. You can easily fracture an arm.

[GlennR]

]The elbow of the bong is the critical part, raising the elbow of thebong so you slap a punch to opposite ears. This enables you to attack forwards while making a punch go past your face either side.

Is there a bridge already or are you using bong to create the bridge (and then your subsequent action) ?

[k gledhill]

Is there a bridge already or are you using bong to create the bridge (and then your subsequent action) ?

No bridge, no bridge seeking, bong is making the gap to strike into. There is something in your way, you remove it violently. The contact of arms is micro second of energy transfer, ballistic force. Like you would slap an arm away form your center, sideways.

[WC1277]

The elbow of the bong is the critical part, raising the elbow of thebong so you slap a punch to opposite ears. This enables you to attack forwards while making a punch go past your face either side.
The low bong on the dummy is to develop the sharp slapping force. The height of bong is only relevant to the arm your using it on and yours, same energy , same tactical purpose. Displacing a bridge.

The low bongs in the form are purely to create sharp rotational force to the center line, but you only use one at a time fighting obviously, at the required height of the interaction. Once you get it you will injure your students so take care. You can easily fracture an arm.

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If you're developing that technique for that purpose then you are truly no different then a "chi sao warrior" whom doesn't see the big picture. That technique is a WC trick. A trick is anything someone does in chi sao or sparring that specifically focuses on a weakness within the person or the system. Your "bong" is a trick that is and would be of value to only one who is punching you with their elbow down. That's the way a lot of people see the WSL system. A system of tricks modified specifically for other Chinese martial arts. Even Hawkins Cheung alluded to that. Your "bong", and I mean the WSL/PB bong, is pretty much worthless to the majority of western styles of fighting however and you need to recognize that one of these days. On another note, Ip Man did not either fight or do chi sao the way PB teaches his system. If one could say WSL was a mixture of Ip Man and his own evolvement, one could say PB is a complete detachment from Ip Man WC entirely. So do yourself a favor and remember that next time you proclaim your inherited truth. There are many students who have said that Ip Man barely moved in chi sao and his entire focus was on, not to qoute Bruce Lee here, but was being like water in both attack and defense. This tactical, angling, ballistic force crap is and was not a focus. It was timing and absorbing/redirecting force. Period.

Also there is a difference between low bong and high bong. You are correct that low bong is created on your own but it's not for "ballistic" reasons. Your body does the work but your bong does the scooping and this is important.....towards your opponents center, to disrupt their center of gravity!!!!!! Geez Luiz!

[k gledhill]

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If you're developing that technique for that purpose then you are truly no different then a "chi sao warrior" whom doesn't see the big picture. That technique is a WC trick. A trick is anything someone does in chi sao or sparring that specifically focuses on a weakness within the person or the system. Your "bong" is a trick that is and would be of value to only one who is punching you with their elbow down. That's the way a lot of people see the WSL system. A system of tricks modified specifically for other Chinese martial arts. Even Hawkins Cheung alluded to that. Your "bong", and I mean the WSL/PB bong, is pretty much worthless to the majority of western styles of fighting however and you need to recognize that one of these days. On another note, Ip Man did not either fight or do chi sao the way PB teaches his system. If one could say WSL was a mixture of Ip Man and his own evolvement, one could say PB is a complete detachment from Ip Man WC entirely. So do yourself a favor and remember that next time you proclaim your inherited truth. There are many students who have said that Ip Man barely moved in chi sao and his entire focus was on, not to qoute Bruce Lee here, but was being like water in both attack and defense. This tactical, angling, ballistic force crap is and was not a focus. It was timing and absorbing/redirecting force. Period.

Also there is a difference between low bong and high bong. You are correct that low bong is created on your own but it's not for "ballistic" reasons. Your body does the work but your bong does the scooping and this is important.....towards your opponents center, to disrupt their center of gravity!!!!!! Geez Luiz!

You dont know what your talking about WC1277 , if that's your real name

BTW Hawkins Cheung once complemented me personally on my bong saos at a dinner after a seminar we did at his school in L.A. my left one he said was better

No tricks, skill. I use this stuff to spar guys, it works. In fact I get compliments from the other boxing coaches in the gym I train at in Brooklyn. They are all fighters not chi-sao warriors like yourself

I also want you to remember I met and did a little friendly exchanging with a guy who had done years with your lineage. In a second or two I had hit him easily like a kids game as he chased my hands one way I hit him another...he didnt know what to do if I didnt let him touch my hands ....even he agreed he would have to unlearn the obvious mistakes of over indulging in arm pressure seeking...his words. Sad all those years wasted.

[WC1277]

You dont know what your talking about WC1277 , if that's your real name

BTW Hawkins Cheung once complemented me personally on my bong saos at a dinner after a seminar we did at his school in L.A. my left one he said was better

No tricks, skill. I use this stuff to spar guys, it works. In fact I get compliments from the other boxing coaches in the gym I train at in Brooklyn. They are all fighters not chi-sao warriors like yourself

I also want you to remember I met and did a little friendly exchanging with a guy who had done years with your lineage. In a second or two I had hit him easily like a kids game as he chased my hands one way I hit him another...he didnt know what to do if I didnt let him touch my hands ....even he agreed he would have to unlearn the obvious mistakes of over indulging in arm pressure seeking...his words. Sad all those years wasted.

If that's my real name? What!?

Speaking of names, it'd be sure nice to know the name of the gentleman you speak of? Also, a seminar with whom?

[Ozzy Dave]

Your "bong", and I mean the WSL/PB bong, is pretty much worthless to the majority of western styles of fighting however and you need to recognize that one of these days.

I don't understand what you are getting at here, are you saying it dosen't work against boxing for instance?

This tactical, angling, ballistic force crap is and was not a focus. It was timing and absorbing/redirecting force. Period.

I have to say I agree with Kevin on this one, his description of bong sao is spot on from my experience.

The angling ballistic force is what is required for redirecting force, absorbing force is another way of saying "getting hit". The higher your level the less overt your application appears that's all.

Dave

[k gledhill]

I don't understand what you are getting at here, are you saying it dosen't work against boxing for instance?



I have to say I agree with Kevin on this one, his description of bong sao is spot on from my experience.

The angling ballistic force is what is required for redirecting force, absorbing force is another way of saying "getting hit". The higher your level the less overt your application appears that's all.

Dave

It works for me very well, its fast and helps to overturn guys without turning ourselves. It worked for YM~WSL~PB, its good enough for me

The beauty of the idea is that the speed of bong is not only in raising the elbow, but lowering it equally as fast back to a centered striking elbow position in the blink of an eye....FAST.

[GlennR]

It works for me very well, its fast and helps to overturn guys without turning ourselves. It worked for YM~WSL~PB, its good enough for me

Well im glad it does, but having said that it goes against how id use/what ive been taught bong.

But all the ballistic stuff aside, i agree with WC1277 in regards to a boxers punch with elbows out, say a cross or jab. Youre going to have to raise that arm up to pick up the forearm, particularly if he's tall.

Not being the WC purist, but i just dont see it working.

But im open to being convinced otherwise