The shot in MMA (aka the double leg)

[Frost]

When done properly is probably one of the safest takedowns you can do in MMA
That is all feel free to disagree I will not be deleting the thread don’t worry

[YouKnowWho]

In the beginner level, you may like to use single leg and double leg because it's easy to develop. When you have developed more grappling skills, you will prefer other moves.

You don't need to use both hands to shoot for "single leg". One hand should be enough. Your other hand can do a lot of other things.

[Frost]

the double leg is probably one of the hardest takedowns to actually get down correctly, but its also one of the most effective

your definition of a single let and mine are different

[YouKnowWho]

Of course if you can get both of your opponent's legs at the same time, it will be better than to get your opponent's one leg first and then to get his other leg after. Most of the time, your opponent's back leg is too far away from your reach. That's why old Chinese saying said, "Get both if you can, otherwise, get one first and get the other afterward". After you have obtained both of your opponent's legs, your opponent will have no legs left but to go down.

My definition of "single leg" is to capture your opponent's front leg into your hand (or arm).

[Frost]

It can be too far away, which is why in wrestling and MMA you quite often shoot a double by going to the knee to get the extra reach, which I believe in chinese wrestling is not allowed correct?
Yep different from my definition , for me a wrestling single is when you control and throw your opponent with his one leg, ether running the pipe, switching to a high crotch, tripping etc, it starts with both hands on the leg in order to gain control and be able to lift it, and the leg is the focus of the attack: single arm leg lifts don’t work that well the leg is too strong, and if we are talking lifting with the one arm and grabbing the waist with the other for a lift or throw, I don’t count that as a single leg attack but rather a version of the double for me a single leg attack starts and ends with his leg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Get in, get under, get control -lift and dump.
Poetry in motion.
It's all about range in my view.
It works when you are in the range that no expects you to shoot and tends to fail when you are ot of that range.
And the range I am talking about is grappling range at best and punching range at worse ( though BOTH ranges should be the same).

[YouKnowWho]

It can be too far away, which is why in wrestling and MMA you quite often shoot a double by going to the knee to get the extra reach, which I believe in chinese wrestling is not allowed correct?

It's allowed in Chinese wrestling but not too many Chinese wrestlers like to use it because the rule set. In Chinese wrestling, if any 2 points of your body besides your feet touch the ground, you lose that round. When you apply single and double, your body is so close to the ground. It's very easy for your oponent to put a bit downward pressure to force your hand, elbow, or knee to touch the ground. That will give your opponent an easy round and you don't want to do that.

Here is a picture to show that one guy shoots in and his opponent (my teacher) dragged him down and won the round. It's clear to see that his opponent had one hand and one knee on the ground and that round ended right there.

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/3...ournament1.jpg

The referee in the above picture was Wang Zi-Ping.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Zi-Ping

[YouKnowWho]

single arm leg lifts don’t work that well the leg is too strong,

When you push your opponent's upper body and make him to lean back, his leg will come off the ground and into your hand. There won't be much weight in that leg at that particular moment. Since you need one of your hands to do the "pushing", you have only one hand left and you can't afford to use both hands to reach to your opponent's single leg.

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2...terfootswe.jpg

IMO, how to make your opponent's leg to come into your hand is more important than how to reach to your opponent's leg. The goal may be the same but the pathes to get there are different.

[bawang]

In the beginner level, you may like to use single leg and double leg because it's easy to develop. When you have developed more grappling skills, you will prefer other moves.

You don't need to use both hands to shoot for "single leg". One hand should be enough. Your other hand can do a lot of other things.

you say this because you are biased from shuai jiao. shuai jiao is manchu bukku wrestling, and manchus dont like leg holds.

(chinese were forbidden by law to wrestle)

[Wayfaring]

When done properly is probably one of the safest takedowns you can do in MMA
That is all feel free to disagree I will not be deleting the thread don’t worry

Yeah - it's the "when done properly" part that's the problem. The main sticking point I've seen with people is the difference between getting penetration with your hips so your upper body is close to vertical when driving through the takedown ("correct") vs. the head stuck out in a "guillotine me" position and trying to finish it with the upper body horizontal to the ground and trying to run fast to drive through ("incorrect").

[YouKnowWho]

you say this because you are biased from shuai jiao.

Common sense tell us that we should not expose out head under our opponent's attack. This common sense has nothing to do with style.

This is "抱腿(Bao Tui) - single leg" followed by "手别(Shou Bei) - hand block" which is very similiar to "double leg". Instead of "get both at the same time", you "get 1 first and get the other after".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imL5eGzivr4

"guillotine me".

That's exactly my concern. If your head is

- horizontal, your opponent can press your neck and drag you to the ground (or guillotine you).
- vertical, your opponent can press back on your forehead, the harder that you advance, the more pain that will be put on your neck.

It's risky in both cases. If you get a broken neck, you are finish for the rest of your life.

[Frost]

Common sense tell us that we should not expose out head under our opponent's attack. This common sense has nothing to do with style.

This is "抱腿(Bao Tui) - single leg" followed by "手别(Shou Bei) - hand block" which is very similiar to "double leg". Instead of "get both at the same time", you "get 1 first and get the other after".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imL5eGzivr4


That's exactly my concern. If your head is

- horizontal, your opponent can press your neck and drag you to the ground (or guillotine you).
- vertical, your opponent can press back on your forehead, the harder that you advance, the more pain that will be put on your neck.

It's risky in both cases. If you get a broken neck, you are finish for the rest of your life.

The reason I started this thread was because of this misinformed view of the double.. There have been 2 or at most 3 cases or a Brocken neck due to the double leg in the last 15 years, and these have been due to how you land NOT your opponent pushing your head backwards, this has never happened as far as I am aware, if you can site sources ill gladly read them, otherwise please keep the fantasy stuff to the wing chun forum

[YouKnowWho]

The reason I started this thread was because of this misinformed view of the double.. There have been 2 or at most 3 cases or a Brocken neck due to the double leg in the last 15 years, and these have been due to how you land NOT your opponent pushing your head backwards, this has never happened as far as I am aware, if you can site sources ill gladly read them, otherwise please keep the fantasy stuff to the wing chun forum

Fantasy? That word doesn't exist in my dictionary. I have tried to bring others from the fantasy world back into the real world. The only thing that I believe is whether you can knock/throw me down or the other way around. I'm not the person who believe in any "snake engine", 6DFV, or the "spiritual world". The world that I'm living in can't be any more "real".

If both of your hands can push on your opponent's forehead, one of your fists will be able to hit on his face which will give you better result in MMA rullset. You run your head into your opponent's pushing hands. Same as you run into your opponent's punch/kick. It happens all the time in combat.

The "速(Su) – forehead push" principle had been used in the Chinese wrestling for over thousands years (where punch is not permitted in that sport). It's the #10 basic drills among the ancient 24 basic drills.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4...reheadpush.jpg

[Frost]

Fantasy? That word doesn't exist in my dictionary. I have tried to bring others from the fantasy world back into the real world. The only thing that I believe is whether you can knock/throw me down or the other way around. I'm not the person who believe in any "snake engine", 6DFV, or the "spiritual world". The world that I'm living in can't be any more "real".

If both of your hands can push on your opponent's forehead, one of your fists will be able to hit on his face which will give you better result in MMA rullset. You run your head into your opponent's pushing hands. Same as you run into your opponent's punch/kick. It happens all the time in combat.

The "速(Su) – forehead push" principle had been used in the Chinese wrestling for over thousands years (where punch is not permitted in that sport). It's the #10 basic drills among the ancient 24 basic drills.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4...reheadpush.jpg

please show me one example of a neck being snapped whilst shooting a double leg simply by the defender pushing their head backwards...that is what i said was fantasy ...whilst you are at it please show one example of the head being pushed back with one hand and hit with the other hand whilst shooting a double.....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fantasy? That word doesn't exist in my dictionary. I have tried to bring others from the fantasy world back into the real world. The only thing that I believe is whether you can knock/throw me down or the other way around. I'm not the person who believe in any "snake engine", 6DFV, or the "spiritual world". The world that I'm living in can't be any more "real".

If both of your hands can push on your opponent's forehead, one of your fists will be able to hit on his face which will give you better result in MMA rullset. You run your head into your opponent's pushing hands. Same as you run into your opponent's punch/kick. It happens all the time in combat.

The "速(Su) – forehead push" principle had been used in the Chinese wrestling for over thousands years (where punch is not permitted in that sport). It's the #10 basic drills among the ancient 24 basic drills.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4...reheadpush.jpg

At best that MAY give you "whiplash" but it won't snap a thing.
The break or even dislocate a cervical vetebra, you need to do a very different action than that.
The worse case for that type of force is a compression, perhaps "chipping" of the vertebra.