What Could Happen If Your Chi Sau Is Poor

[Subitai]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gav4M...eature=related

Ok 1st of all, obviously the title of the video is mislabeled. Of course chi sao is drilling not fighting and so to say "Insert title here"... is almost like saying chi sao is fighting.

If you have to worry about everything (like a double leg for example) then isn't it really just: "What could happen if your fighting skill is poor " instead of the original title?

Of course depending on a persons grappling skill...they might chew this video up.
It's at least good that they're trying to address this range.

Just browsing around ok...so sorry if this is old topics.

[Buddha_Fist]

Of course depending on a persons grappling skill...they might chew this video up. It's at least good that they're trying to address this range.

My beef with Ving Tsun schools trying to teach grappling is that the results are way too often sub-optimal. Ving Tsun is not grappling, but a Chinese boxing method. I prefer going to a wrestling, BJJ, or other grappling place for top notch grappling instruction. Go to the best people for the different aspects of the game.

[k gledhill]

Misrepresentation of Chi sao

[Frost]

Warning, im about to vent....

I cant comment on the chi sao, but the grappling was P*ss poor andso sh*t it wasnt even funny: he was wrong in so many ways its not even funny

the body lock takedown was cr%p you wont get the chance to just keep going because any half decent grappler, (ie not these two muppets) would keep control of the hips and put weight into you, not let go so you can spin out and look cool

The sprawl is not used when the opponent is far away, but when he is in on your hips and close, getting that fundermental aspect of the game so fecking wrong doesnt bode well ...as for the actual takedown how the hell he managed to NOT get any penetration from that range ill never know, no forward momentum, rubbish finish un realistic body angle, weight going down not forwards its all there...by that i mean everything you are ever told NOT to do by a grappling coach

As for the defence, no level change just stand strong and kick over there head, jesus did people actually pay for this seminar?

the single leg take down were better, although not enough level change and no one falls over like that, and i like the heel hook sweep but you probably need both feet on the hips to make it work,

as someone else said just go to a grappler for this stuff

[wingchunIan]

Warning, im about to vent....

I cant comment on the chi sao, but the grappling was P*ss poor andso sh*t it wasnt even funny: he was wrong in so many ways its not even funny

the body lock takedown was cr%p you wont get the chance to just keep going because any half decent grappler, (ie not these two muppets) would keep control of the hips and put weight into you, not let go so you can spin out and look cool

The sprawl is not used when the opponent is far away, but when he is in on your hips and close, getting that fundermental aspect of the game so fecking wrong doesnt bode well ...as for the actual takedown how the hell he managed to NOT get any penetration from that range ill never know, no forward momentum, rubbish finish un realistic body angle, weight going down not forwards its all there...by that i mean everything you are ever told NOT to do by a grappling coach

As for the defence, no level change just stand strong and kick over there head, jesus did people actually pay for this seminar?

the single leg take down were better, although not enough level change and no one falls over like that, and i like the heel hook sweep but you probably need both feet on the hips to make it work,

as someone else said just go to a grappler for this stuff

wonder when we'll see the kick over takedown defence in the UFC.......

[Frost]

wonder when we'll see the kick over takedown defence in the UFC.......

right aout ths same time we see them simply rolling out of the bodylock takedown and standing up like nothing happened......

[Chadderz]

I thought it was alright, and I'm a grappler.

[Frost]

I thought it was alright, and I'm a grappler.

oh snap me too, 10 years in submission grappling, and i think it sucked

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Subitai;1172263]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gav4M...eature=related

Ok 1st of all, obviously the title of the video is mislabeled. Of course chi sao is drilling not fighting and so to say "Insert title here"... is almost like saying chi sao is fighting.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no chi sao there to begin with.
Agree with Kevin on the chi sao and Frost on the grappling.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

OK - I've held off from commenting on this for a few reasons, but I'll dig into it.

First off, the concept in the video is absolutely correct. He is trying to address the openings that you can leave in chi sau for a good grappler. The fact that he is dealing with this topic, and delving into it to me is very good. For that reason, and because I think more should do this kind of experimentation, I am going to allow the guy some leeway in the crap detail of his groundwork. To the guy/team that made the video I would say - "great concept - now get someone to teach you/work out the details / specifics who actually has good ground fundamentals.

This brings up the reasonable point - do you really need to do all this mumbo jumbo to fix holes in your chi sau? (I'm also not going to take on the main topic I've been commenting on for the last 2 months - difference between chi sau and fighting - valid point but I don't need to make it again). IMO I think you can shut down angles for the body lock takedown as well as the double leg and single leg by practice and improving against that type of movement by training chi sau. (OK - yes I realize that now hell must have frozen over because I made that comment).
But my point is that great grapplers train grip fighting for this exact type of thing. So to train your chi sau to have similar energies against grappling grip fighting I think is an absolute must if you are going to fight in clinch range. I also think you should train chi sau with good grapplers all the way to the takedown, then reset. I also think you should train chi sau sessions by setting 3 min on the timer and setting the chi sau game goal to be to clinch and take down the opponent. This will give good realistic parameters to your training exercises.

Next, let's get to the mechanics. The body lock takedown first. Frost wrote

the body lock takedown was cr%p you wont get the chance to just keep going because any half decent grappler, (ie not these two muppets) would keep control of the hips and put weight into you, not let go so you can spin out and look cool

I partially agree with this. I actually thought the entry part of the movement was all right. To initiate that grab from elbow position is good. The entry and step to the body lock was good. The trip was OK - mediocre.

After that it all degrades. For better pressure and control on the takedown, first after the entry step the gable grip needs to be locked around the waist tighter to prevent movement like the ridiculous rollout he was teaching. Next, need to get hips into the guys center, otherwise more athletic guys will just power through and step over the takedown. Hips into center includes the near knee pressuring his near leg breaking the alignment of the posture. After the leg trip, you should prevent the rollout and secure side control.

The rollout defense to that is iffy. Concept wise if an opponent initiates movement in a takedown, you can load up and continue the movement once it hits the ground - this is true a lot of places. However, the details on the video are complete @$$. Wrestlers will granby roll out of that takedown.

Next the double-leg takedown. Ignore 100% of the detail on the video. The kickover defense is about the stupidest approach to defending the double that I have ever seen (although I am going to pull that one off in sparring just for laughs and to punk my sparring opponent). Rather than intricate critique's of singles and doubles, just get with a competant wrestler (i.e. someone who competed in college - HS level doesn't have good enough instruction mostly), and learn the movements and the defenses. Once you have some reps in, it should be easy to add that into your bridge training. Oh - the guys double - he is almost taking the guy down to the side his head is on, which you should avoid as accidents from that position could lead to spinal compression fractures and severe complications.

After he hits the ground - from guard he is almost right. He talks about keeping the opponent tight - putting feet on the hips and kicking to produce distance and standing up. That is right. If you have someone in your guard, control posture by holding them tightly to you to minimize strike damage, if they draw a fist back put a foot in the hip and fill that space. A strong kick with feet on the hips and a good technical standup is how I would train WCK non-grapplers to deal with takedowns and working from their back(actually I'd teach them a funk defense also).

The single leg takedown and defense are cr@p too. The details are very bad. The "escape" he shows is very close to a heel hook submission. If you're going to that trouble to escape you might as well destroy a knee and end the fight.

In general the problem with his detail is he's worked out the sequences on compliant partners, and has low level of ground skill. And he's teaching a seminar and videoing it.

So overall - I like that he is addressing the ground game with students and attempting to do something. However, he doesn't know what he's doing.

Guys - stuff like this kind of leaves me mixed. It's a good idea and really stupid at the same time.

If you are going to do seminars, training sessions, etc. for your guys on ground topics why don't you just hire a BJJ black belt or collegiate wrestler to come in and do that portion of it? Meet with them ahead of time, plan things out. IMO you'll have a lot better success, plus more contacts to try the stuff out against.

My .02.

[k gledhill]

OK - I've held off from commenting on this for a few reasons, but I'll dig into it.

First off, the concept in the video is absolutely correct. He is trying to address the openings that you can leave in chi sau for a good grappler. The fact that he is dealing with this topic, and delving into it to me is very good. For that reason, and because I think more should do this kind of experimentation, I am going to allow the guy some leeway in the crap detail of his groundwork. To the guy/team that made the video I would say - "great concept - now get someone to teach you/work out the details / specifics who actually has good ground fundamentals.

This brings up the reasonable point - do you really need to do all this mumbo jumbo to fix holes in your chi sau? (I'm also not going to take on the main topic I've been commenting on for the last 2 months - difference between chi sau and fighting - valid point but I don't need to make it again). IMO I think you can shut down angles for the body lock takedown as well as the double leg and single leg by practice and improving against that type of movement by training chi sau. (OK - yes I realize that now hell must have frozen over because I made that comment).
But my point is that great grapplers train grip fighting for this exact type of thing. So to train your chi sau to have similar energies against grappling grip fighting I think is an absolute must if you are going to fight in clinch range. I also think you should train chi sau with good grapplers all the way to the takedown, then reset. I also think you should train chi sau sessions by setting 3 min on the timer and setting the chi sau game goal to be to clinch and take down the opponent. This will give good realistic parameters to your training exercises.

Next, let's get to the mechanics. The body lock takedown first. Frost wrote

I partially agree with this. I actually thought the entry part of the movement was all right. To initiate that grab from elbow position is good. The entry and step to the body lock was good. The trip was OK - mediocre.

After that it all degrades. For better pressure and control on the takedown, first after the entry step the gable grip needs to be locked around the waist tighter to prevent movement like the ridiculous rollout he was teaching. Next, need to get hips into the guys center, otherwise more athletic guys will just power through and step over the takedown. Hips into center includes the near knee pressuring his near leg breaking the alignment of the posture. After the leg trip, you should prevent the rollout and secure side control.

The rollout defense to that is iffy. Concept wise if an opponent initiates movement in a takedown, you can load up and continue the movement once it hits the ground - this is true a lot of places. However, the details on the video are complete @$$. Wrestlers will granby roll out of that takedown.

Next the double-leg takedown. Ignore 100% of the detail on the video. The kickover defense is about the stupidest approach to defending the double that I have ever seen (although I am going to pull that one off in sparring just for laughs and to punk my sparring opponent). Rather than intricate critique's of singles and doubles, just get with a competant wrestler (i.e. someone who competed in college - HS level doesn't have good enough instruction mostly), and learn the movements and the defenses. Once you have some reps in, it should be easy to add that into your bridge training. Oh - the guys double - he is almost taking the guy down to the side his head is on, which you should avoid as accidents from that position could lead to spinal compression fractures and severe complications.

After he hits the ground - from guard he is almost right. He talks about keeping the opponent tight - putting feet on the hips and kicking to produce distance and standing up. That is right. If you have someone in your guard, control posture by holding them tightly to you to minimize strike damage, if they draw a fist back put a foot in the hip and fill that space. A strong kick with feet on the hips and a good technical standup is how I would train WCK non-grapplers to deal with takedowns and working from their back(actually I'd teach them a funk defense also).

The single leg takedown and defense are cr@p too. The details are very bad. The "escape" he shows is very close to a heel hook submission. If you're going to that trouble to escape you might as well destroy a knee and end the fight.

In general the problem with his detail is he's worked out the sequences on compliant partners, and has low level of ground skill. And he's teaching a seminar and videoing it.

So overall - I like that he is addressing the ground game with students and attempting to do something. However, he doesn't know what he's doing.

Guys - stuff like this kind of leaves me mixed. It's a good idea and really stupid at the same time.

If you are going to do seminars, training sessions, etc. for your guys on ground topics why don't you just hire a BJJ black belt or collegiate wrestler to come in and do that portion of it? Meet with them ahead of time, plan things out. IMO you'll have a lot better success, plus more contacts to try the stuff out against.

My .02.

Cracks in chi-sao for a grappler....here we go, that statement alone is laughable.

[Wayfaring]

Cracks in chi-sao for a grappler....here we go, that statement alone is laughable.

Actually, your obnoxious sniping at thought-out content is what is laughable.

It's very evident that you have put none of the work in I am talking about in this area. Yes, your bridge work developed by chi sau should be able to function against the grip fighting of a competant wrestler.

[k gledhill]

Actually, your obnoxious sniping at thought-out content is what is laughable.

It's very evident that you have put none of the work in I am talking about in this area. Yes, your bridge work developed by chi sau should be able to function against the grip fighting of a competant wrestler.

Let me get this right, you think I chi-sao to deal with grappling by rolling my arms at you ?

[k gledhill]

My beef with Ving Tsun schools trying to teach grappling is that the results are way too often sub-optimal. Ving Tsun is not grappling, but a Chinese boxing method. I prefer going to a wrestling, BJJ, or other grappling place for top notch grappling instruction. Go to the best people for the different aspects of the game.

Agree, product of misinformed $ grabbers, jumping on the latest fad, "we have that in our system too" syndrome.
Ninjitsu ? we had that. Catch wrestling ? came from our system , yeah not many know that little gem, sign here....

[JPinAZ]

Cracks in chi-sao for a grappler....here we go, that statement alone is laughable.

I think your cheap shot at Wayfarings well written and backed-up post and reasoning is pretty weak. He's spot on all the way thru and gives very detailed reasons for what he sees. And this is all you have to say?