All things White Crane!!!

[ginosifu]

If I may put my 2 cents in:

Martial arts of all countries, peoples, ethnicities, religions etc all have their roots in Fighting. Martial survival techniques was the most important art form early mankind created.

Wu = 武 = Martial, Military, War like.

Shu = 術 = Skill, Method, Technique.

This is our roots no matter how you slice it. However, as time went on, certain groups added Yoga, Qi Gong, Meditation etc to their Martial Programs to increase the longevity of the peoples. Now I am going out on a limb here but I would guess that all of these health aspects were added during times of peace.

Now many Martial Arts have peace time aspects that students can perfect. However, when it is time to fight..... lets get back to basics and beat the crap out of some bad guys !

ginosifu

[Minghequan]

You Know Who:

That's fine! You start this thread but you only want to hear what you want to hear.

That's cool. Yes I did start this thread. It has to do with White Crane as both a fighting or as I prefer to term it "Life-Protection" method and an art. The actual thread is about White Crane and not the endless debate as to if it should be solely a fighting method or a transformational art:-

Arising out of my recent discussions with Hendrik etc I am looking at starting this thread to look at "All things White Crane!"

So lets start at the beginning and lets share what we have, know or think!!!

I'll start by asking what was the original White Crane really like?

However seeing as you and others have made a mistaken "assumption" on my behalf allow me to state it as it actually is for me:

1/. To me, White Crane Gongfu is first and foremost a functional, effective method of life-protection (Fighting). This is the way the metaphor for it's origins is based and the way in which I teach it within my own Wu Dao Tang 武道堂 總部. my particular approach to White Crane is coined as "Wu He Dao Zhan Pai" ~ 武鶴道戰派 ~ "Martial Crane Way Battle Sect"

2/. Secondly my White Crane can also be viewed as a life transformational form of self-expression. At no time does this neglect or fail to address the fighting nature of the art.

This now made perfectly clear can we not move on to the actual Thread and discuss White Crane Gongfu (in all it's expressions) for those actually interested or who have something to share on the subject.

[Minghequan]

Hendrik:

IMHO,
You have your opinion. But your opinion is not what the art of white crane about.

Nothing good or bad , Ron just wants a specific focus.

Thank you Hendrik. I like your approach very much. Logical and dealing with the information from a practical and technological viewpoint.

YouKnowWho:

I think you 2 guys just live on different worlds. One lives in a "combat - for others" world (also the world that I live in), while the other lives in a "self-development - for oneself" world.

Onething for sure is there is no way that you can train the poem "摇(YAO) - shake" without a live opponent.

YouKnowWho, Sanjuro Ronin, Gino Shifu .... Guys,each to his own of course but please don't make "assumptions" about people who you don't know nor have shared the floor with. You could end up with some proverbial "egg on your face" doing this ... just saying. Mate, a little background ... I worked for over 5 years for the Australian Government in Youth Work often dealing with some of the worst society had to present, very street savvy individuals capable of a great deal of damage. From there I went on to be a Manager of yet another Government Skills Training Provider. From there I spent (on-going) 22 years to date in the Security Operative Industry (Cert II) as both a Bodyguard and Crowd Controller ... I have seen just about it all without going into unnecessary detail here.

Therefore my approach has always been in the area of actual fighting, not play acting in the Dojo, Kwoon, Guan or Tang but out there where it really happens. Without bragging, some of the people I teach or have taught have been involved in high level activities in a high level way such as the the Australian Army, Police Force, Tactical Operations Group, Senior Correctional Services Officers .. all proof positive that what we teach in Wu He Dao Zhan Pai White Crane Gongfu is very practical from a personal defense and Life-Protection manner!

Let focus on white crane tradition not about you or my opinion.

I agree with Hendrik here.

[ginosifu]

YouKnowWho, Sanjuro Ronin, Gino Shifu .... Guys,each to his own of course but please don't make "assumptions" about people who you don't know nor have shared the floor with. You could end up with some proverbial "egg on your face" doing this ... just saying. Mate, a little background ... I worked for over 5 years for the Australian Government in Youth Work often dealing with some of the worst society had to present, very street savvy individuals capable of a great deal of damage. From there I went on to be a Manager of yet another Government Skills Training Provider. From there I spent (on-going) 22 years to date in the Security Operative Industry (Cert II) as both a Bodyguard and Crowd Controller ... I have seen just about it all without going into unnecessary detail here.

Therefore my approach has always been in the area of actual fighting, not play acting in the Dojo, Kwoon, Guan or Tang but out there where it really happens. Without bragging, some of the people I teach or have taught have been involved in high level activities in a high level way such as the the Australian Army, Police Force, Tactical Operations Group, Senior Correctional Services Officers .. all proof positive that what we teach in Wu He Dao Zhan Pai White Crane Gongfu is very practical from a personal defense and Life-Protection manner!

Minghequan: I was not stating that you do not understand or do many of the Martial side of your art. I was just stating that all MA have their roots in Fighting. The modern person may do Qi Gong / Health aspect of MA along with their fighting. I have been doing Taiji & Qi Gong for almost 20 year now and my aim has always been health.

There are people that do MA as a religion and even people that do MA as a philosophy. Why people do MA is a personal choice and is not really important. I just noted that without the fighting we would be doing yoga or qi gong or meditation etc only.

ginosifu

[Hendrik]

Minghequan: I was not stating that you do not understand or do many of the Martial side of your art. I was just stating that all MA have their roots in Fighting. The modern person may do Qi Gong / Health aspect of MA along with their fighting. I have been doing Taiji & Qi Gong for almost 20 year now and my aim has always been health.

There are people that do MA as a religion and even people that do MA as a philosophy. Why people do MA is a personal choice and is not really important. I just noted that without the fighting we would be doing yoga or qi gong or meditation etc only.

ginosifu

Internal training in ancient martial art such as white crane is a holistic element directly supporting martial art . internal training is a part of the integration or the style.

The Add on of Internal training such as taiji and qi gong for health (or religion or philosophy ) to a modern external martial art to make it whole concept is a modern or western coin idea. Belongs to those new ager Who doesn't have the technology. And cannot make the real ancient deal work. Not to mention most doesn't even know what is internal is about.

Thus, it is very important to know the style via the white crane ancient writing. Also, it is only logical to comment on something when one really knows what it is.

[Hendrik]

in 1600 chinese martial art technology has already on its peak. thus, when White Crane was designed, it was using the top technology of its time. the momentum, force vectors flow, combat tactic, and Qi flow are fused into a single piece with the mind body evolution training.

most of the modern tcma practioners do not understand the five layers. but using a western body mind model to assume tcma such as White Crane. That cause misleading and can not figure out what is the integration and the characteristics of the style. and cannot make the full use of it.


White Crane has white crane uniqueness requirement at every layer to satisfy the combat applications with distinction. thus, White Crane is not Taiji . mixing Taiji to some white crane move does not make it white crane. in fact today's most of the Taiji's practice are erroneous and impractical for fighting.


TCMA internal is much much more then a crude coarse physical fighting or sport. it is a technology. it has technology which makes it effective and efficient. white crane is a weapon, there is no such weapon which cannot fight. but expecting a gun to be as sharp as a knive is totally missed the point. and that is exactly what most western internal tcma critics who doesnt know the subject do --- they all comment before find out why the gun has no sharp edge.


I am not here to defend white crane. my message is just, why not analyze what white crane is and present it as what it is. let it be what it is no more no less.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ron, we are discussing the generalities of WC kung fu, not the specific of personal fighting experience.
My point is simply this:
WHite Crane is a fighting system, it was developed by fighters and used in fighting.
If one wishes to "unlock" the core of the system one must fight WITH the system, just as THEY did.
All the poems and songs will NOT give you any "secret" knowledge of it because they were done by guys who had ALREADY fought with it.
They were written BY fighters FOR fighters so they only way you can "get it" is by fighting and by doing so WITH White Crane kung fu.

And that is the exact same case with EVERY other MA.

[Hendrik]

Ron, we are discussing the generalities of WC kung fu, not the specific of personal fighting experience.

My point is simply this:

WHite Crane is a fighting system, it was developed by fighters and used in fighting.
If one wishes to "unlock" the core of the system one must fight WITH the system, just as THEY did.

All the poems and songs will NOT give you any "secret" knowledge of it because they were done by guys who had ALREADY fought with it.

They were written BY fighters FOR fighters so they only way you can "get it" is by fighting and by doing so WITH White Crane kung fu.

And that is the exact same case with EVERY other MA.

How can you know what is it before you learn what the saying is?

[sanjuro_ronin]

How can you know what is it before you learn what the saying is?

The same way those did BEFORE there were sayings.

[Hendrik]

The same way those did BEFORE there were sayings.

The saying of white crane has presented very specific description on how the physical, mind, breath, qi, force vector, momentum, tactic.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The saying of white crane has presented very specific description on how the physical, mind, breath, qi, force vector, momentum, tactic.

Things that you will ONLY grasp when you USE them in the way they were developed, ie: in combat.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Even though this a thread called "ALL things White crane", it seems that the thread starter doesn't wan to discuss the practical application of White Crane.
So, I won't pursue this any further.

[Brule]

[jimbob]

Let me not speak for anyone else, but I'm sure there is plenty of room to discuss the fighting aspects of White Crane on a thread titled "All things White Crane"!

I would love to read contributions from any and all on this. As an aging CLF guy, I remember only being told that the White Crane guys were our mortal enemies in Singapore back in the day (bad blood caused due to someone getting whacked in the throat during a 'friendly', I think!).

Sanjuro - I couldn't agree with your sentiments more. Unlocking an art HAS to happen fundamentally at a fighting level if you want to understand it.

Is this not an adequate point from which to begin the discussion? It doesn't mean we can't discuss other benefits as well.

[Hendrik]

Let me not speak for anyone else, but I'm sure there is plenty of room to discuss the fighting aspects of White Crane on a thread titled "All things White Crane"!

I would love to read contributions from any and all on this. As an aging CLF guy, I remember only being told that the White Crane guys were our mortal enemies in Singapore back in the day (bad blood caused due to someone getting whacked in the throat during a 'friendly', I think!).

Sanjuro - I couldn't agree with your sentiments more. Unlocking an art HAS to happen fundamentally at a fighting level if you want to understand it.

Is this not an adequate point from which to begin the discussion? It doesn't mean we can't discuss other benefits as well.

IMHO,

White Crane was very strong in Indonesia, malaysia, and Singapore in those days, CLF is the cantonese art and the White Crane is fujianess art. there always issue between race and confrontation happen.



If you read my previous post on explaining a saying on the white crane requirement in its physical and power path. you can see the different of foundation between white crane, hung gar iron wire, and CLF. via these different foundation development the tactic and technics uses in fighting are different.


Thus, IMHO, to know an art, one must know the uniqueness of the foundation development or requirement. that is the Kung part of the style.

return to the white crane sayings above. those are the records of the foundation development, technics, and tactic. so unless one know them to a large degree, one really do not know the art because one cannot reproduce them.