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Thread: oldest style of mantis around

  1. #16
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    Some of us have come to our own conclusions on the issue."

    Yes, this is my area of interest, and not "starting a war over it" as you might conclude.

    Might I ask, from the video posted above which now no longer works, what is the opinion re: oldest style of mantis"

  2. #17
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    I believe that this website offers the most credible history of Tanglangquan: http://www.taipinginstitute.com/menu...y/tanglangquan

    My belief is that Seven Star mantis and Six Harmony mantis are offshoots of Plum Flower mantis.

    Li Bingxaio (1731-1813) is the earliest credible originator of tanglangquan as we know it today. What he taught, a few generations later, became known as Plum Flower mantis.

    Wang Yongchun (1854-1926) created the basis of modern Seven Star mantis by combining his knowledge of long fist with mantis boxing that he learned in Shandong province.

    Wei Delin (1780-1873) created Six Harmonies mantis by combining his knowledge of Six Harmonies boxing with mantis boxing that he learned from a mantis boxer in Laiyang (the hot bed of Plum Flower mantis).
    Richard A. Tolson
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    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  3. #18
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    In the beginning it was just Tanglang. Both Meihua and Qixing came later.

    BT

  4. #19
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    I think in the beginning there were no forms, and just lines like you do in Xingyi. People got tired of repeating the same movements over and over, so they combined them into forms. Luan Jie probably came first.

    That's not based on any mysterious old manuscripts or secret history, just my own opinion, and could be completely wrong.

  5. #20
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    My belief is that Seven Star mantis and Six Harmony mantis are offshoots of Plum Flower mantis"

    This would make some sense as Liang Xue Xiang was born(according to the information you provided above) some 80 years before the earliest documented master of the 7 star line. Thanks

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaterthanNever View Post
    My belief is that Seven Star mantis and Six Harmony mantis are offshoots of Plum Flower mantis"

    This would make some sense as Liang Xue Xiang was born(according to the information you provided above) some 80 years before the earliest documented master of the 7 star line. Thanks
    But Liang Xue Xiang doesnt directly call his style Plum Flower Mantis in his manuscript.... only calls it Mantis.... it is only his students who added Meihua in front of the name.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by xiao yao View Post
    But Liang Xue Xiang doesnt directly call his style Plum Flower Mantis in his manuscript.... only calls it Mantis.... it is only his students who added Meihua in front of the name.
    Yes, I probably should have said, "My belief is that Seven Star mantis and Six Harmony mantis are offshoots of the mantis family that later came to be known as Plum Flower mantis". Good point Will.
    Richard A. Tolson
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    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

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  8. #23
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    Ah...I see..so ""My belief is that Seven Star mantis and Six Harmony mantis are offshoots of the mantis family that later came to be known as Plum Flower mantis"

    Phrased this way, are you saying that you believe that 7 star was an older art than PB? Thanks.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaterthanNever View Post
    Ah...I see..so ""My belief is that Seven Star mantis and Six Harmony mantis are offshoots of the mantis family that later came to be known as Plum Flower mantis"

    Phrased this way, are you saying that you believe that 7 star was an older art than PB? Thanks.
    No!

    I believe the art passed down by Liang Xuexiang was the original mantis art. The other families are offshoots of that art. Titles are mostly just titles. Which title came first really isn't relevant to me. Meihua, Taiji, Taijimeihua, Qixing have more similarities than differences. All are equally effective for fighting. Liu He Tanglangquan is kind of another thing altogether in comparison.

    I cannot prove my belief anymore than those who oppose my opinion can prove their belief. Chinese masters I have met have various opinions also and are little help in the matter. I do not believe there will ever be a definitive answer. Nor do I believe it matters.
    Richard A. Tolson
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    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  10. #25
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    Tanglang pre-dates Liang Xuexiang.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.Tunks View Post
    Tanglang pre-dates Liang Xuexiang.
    Obviously, since he "passed it down" rather than creating it.

    My opinion is based on the things that can be historically documented by writings still extant. Previous to Liang we have oral traditions and writings that may or may not be mantis in origin.

    But my opinion is still open if you can cite historically verifiable writings still extant.
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 08-07-2015 at 07:37 AM.
    Richard A. Tolson
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    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  12. #27
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    Fair enough its a personal opinion, just not sure how you can say this with authority:

    'I believe the art passed down by Liang Xuexiang was the original mantis art'.

    It's widely accepted that there was an archaic form of TLQ. Whether or not LXX's TLQ is a continuation of it or not is another question, however all of the existing families of TL (including Liuhe) have constructed their identity around the content of manuscripts such Shaolin Yibol Zhenchuan, Shaolin Duanda Quanshi, Shaolin Mijue etc. Many techniques and methods from these manuscripts were already lost/forgotten by the time of the differentiation of families.

    LXX's TL is definitely one of the roots of today's TL, but certainly not the only root.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.Tunks View Post
    It's widely accepted that there was an archaic form of TLQ. Whether or not LXX's TLQ is a continuation of it or not is another question,...
    And that is why it is just an opinion. I do not claim that it is authoritative.

    Quote Originally Posted by B.Tunks View Post
    ...however all of the existing families of TL (including Liuhe) have constructed their identity...
    There is no question that the Chinese were masters of constructing stories, legends, etc. as an attempt at legitimacy. It is still debatable whether the "creator" of mantis boxing, Wang Lang, was an actual historical figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by B.Tunks View Post
    ...however all of the existing families of TL (including Liuhe) have constructed their identity around the content of manuscripts such Shaolin Yibol Zhenchuan, Shaolin Duanda Quanshi, Shaolin Mijue etc.
    Has the exact timeline of these writings ever been firmly established?

    Is Shaolin Duanda Quanshi truly a "mantis document" or was it merely adopted by mantis practitioners because some ideas in it sound similar to mantis theories? The last I heard, the judgment was still out on this.

    Wasn't Shaolin Yibol Zhenchuan (Shaolin Authentics) passed down in Qixing Tanglangquan from Fan Xudong (1841-1936)? Fan Xudong was BORN one year after Liang Xuexiang wrote his treatise on mantis boxing. Is there any verifiable evidence that shows this document even existed in the time of his sifu, Wang Yunsheng? I ask because I recently read that the Hong Kong branch of Qixing Tanglangquan credits Fan Xudong with writing the five volume set.

    Quote Originally Posted by B.Tunks View Post
    Many techniques and methods from these manuscripts were already lost/forgotten by the time of the differentiation of families.
    Lost/forgotten "techniques and methods" have no place as evidence.

    Thank you for your input! It is good to hear other opinions.
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 08-07-2015 at 07:38 AM.
    Richard A. Tolson
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    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  14. #29
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    Yes there is verifiable evidence that it existed at the time of Wang Yunsheng and material from it can be cross referenced in several manuscripts from the period. Shaolin Authentics or parts thereof are passed down in all of the mantis families not just QX. What FXD passed down were his hand written copies (plus his own additions clearly attributed to himself, in the time honoured tradition). The original author of the older components is listed as Sheng Xiao Daoren - as it is in each family's manuscripts. Regardless of whether they were adopted into TLQ or actually authored by one of it's pioneers, they are certainly at its core.

    'Lost' techniques and methods can be very useful to illustrate how something has changed and can also help to map divergence. They can be a useful indicator of time.

    Of course the historicity of WL is still debatable. The same with SXDR. There is research being conducted in Shandong as we speak on the possible identity of SXDR but it's not my work and I don't have permission to give spoilers.

  15. #30
    If I may add to what Master Tunks mentioned in his last paragraph:

    In reference to 王郎 Wang Lang:
    For those who are not familiar -
    One of the four legends of Wang Lang associates him with a historical former Ming Dynasty General named 于孟禧 Yu Mengxi who is commonly known as 于七 Yu Qi (Yu 7) as he was the 7th child born in his family but the first born male. His pagoda resides at Huayan Temple on Mount Lao. He was the grandson of one of China's most famous military generals named 戚继光 Qi Jiguang. You can find more information here:
    http://www.mantisquarterly.com/forum...ead.php?t=1161

    In reference to 升霄道人 Sheng Xiao Daoren:
    There are some people in Shandong who speculate that 李炳霄 Li Bingxiao wrote under the pen name of Sheng Xiao Daoren. There are, however, other differing speculations.

    Warm regards,
    -Darin / Maofei

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