oldest style of mantis around

[B.Tunks]

"Chinese masters I have met have various opinions also and are little help in the matter. I do not believe there will ever be a definitive answer. Nor do I believe it matters."

And what opinions would those be please? Is the split equal between 7 star and PB for the first sub family? More to the point..am I the only one who expresses an interest in this subject?

There's no doubt that what is shown in the clip (Lin Tanfang's material) is about as old as it gets as far as what's still around today in Shandong. Then again, the styles from Hebei - Tongbei TL/Shaolin TL could be even older. Whether that kind of TL is connected to Shandong TL - apart from being connected via foundation manuscripts - is another question.

As far as what's older between MH and QX, the name MH was probably coined earlier if we take Wang Yunsheng as the creator of QX. Names are funny though, as at various periods direct descendants of LXX used the QX name as well. They are really just brands and people didn't obsess about them as much as we do. Many names have also been administered retrospectively.

The thing is, some of what is at the core of QX came intact from Kuaishou Li - in other words, not entirely created by or introduced by WYS. Some of that material was/is also common to MH and predates the branding/split. So, there are parts of what is considered MH or TJTL today that are older than parts of QX (even that's debatable as things introduced from other boxing styles such as Mizong also have a substantial history) and there are parts of QX today that are as old as the parts of MH/TJ that predate the split.

There are a handful of forms that we can fairly safely count amongst the oldest extant routines of Shandong TL and these are well known - Ba Zhou, Luanjie/Lanjie, Zhaiyao (though there was an earlier version than the ones we see today) and Beng Bu. Some say Beng Bu actually came later but it looks like it was actually one of the earlier ones and is one of the commonalities between QX and MH.

[LaterthanNever]

As always..thank you all for your input!


What was, is lost more and more each generation. What is, is what we can master!"

Yes. I am not going to lie. I think that what some masters have done and refuse to teach everything they know and take 10% (arbitary number) with them to the grave is one of the most callous and spiteful things one can do. This is a great way for an art to dilute or even worse..become extinct. I have even heard that the late GM Ip Mans' Wing Chun teacher did not teach GM Ip the entire style(who knows?). One cannot say the same thing about GM Shum Leung of the Ying Jow Pai style..he has the opposite approach(thank the Good Lord).



There are a handful of forms that we can fairly safely count amongst the oldest extant routines of Shandong TL and these are well known - Ba Zhou, Luanjie/Lanjie, Zhaiyao (though there was an earlier version than the ones we see today) and Beng Bu."

Yes, Master Brazier mentioned to me once that a more interesting question to ask is not what the "oldest" style was, but the oldest *form* was/is(I am paraphrasing here Master Brazier so if I am taking your comment out of context, I apologize). Some have said the first documented form was Lan Jie and others say it was Bung Bu. Master Stuart Alve Olson says in his book that the earliest know style of manti was "Lan Jie praying mantis", which I found both interesting(and a bit confusing). Am I to understand that forms back then were considered separate styles in and of themselves?

As for me, I am an 8 step(Ba Bu) practitioner. Some has said that the late GM Wei did not learn Lan Jie since it is not a form in the 8 step curriculum. My thoughts are that his teacher GM Feng Huan Yi(who was a high level Ying Jow practitioner) learned it as "Jeet Kune" (Jie/Jeet same word). I believe that the form is the same though perhaps was modified when Lan Jie was conceived.

Apologies for my ignorance..was Lin Tan Fang a 7 star of PB practitioner? Thank you.

[B.Tunks]

was Lin Tan Fang a 7 star of PB practitioner? Thank you.

Meihua/PB. He was student/disciple of Xiu Kunshan, so a direct descendant of Liang Xuexiang.

[mooyingmantis]

Liang Xuexiang (1810-1895) wrote about:
Luanjie (chaotically connected) which later became known as Lanjie (intercepting)
Ba Zhou (eight elbows) which refers to short striking methods
Beng Bu (crash and fill) which later became know as Beng Bu (crashing step)

He is also credited by some with creating the six part Zhaiyao series. Some believe his student Jiang Hualong altered Zhaiyao and added a seventh section that focused on ground fighting.

Jiang Hualong and/or Song Zide created Meihua Lu. They also created a new Beng Bu passed down through the Taji Tanglanquan/Cui Shoushan line.

Mainland Seven Star has versions of each of these forms. They are fairly similar to the Plum Flower versions.

Hong Kong Seven Star forms are quite different from their Plum Flower counterparts.

As an aside, the Beng Bu of Qixing, Taiji, Taichi, Meihua and Taijimeihua Tanglang all share about 12 of the same moves, then depart from one another.

[xiao yao]

As always..thank you all for your input!


Yes, Master Brazier mentioned to me once that a more interesting question to ask is not what the "oldest" style was, but the oldest *form* was/is(I am paraphrasing here Master Brazier so if I am taking your comment out of context, I apologize). Some have said the first documented form was Lan Jie and others say it was Bung Bu. Master Stuart Alve Olson says in his book that the earliest know style of manti was "Lan Jie praying mantis", which I found both interesting(and a bit confusing). Am I to understand that forms back then were considered separate styles in and of themselves?

As for me, I am an 8 step(Ba Bu) practitioner. Some has said that the late GM Wei did not learn Lan Jie since it is not a form in the 8 step curriculum. My thoughts are that his teacher GM Feng Huan Yi(who was a high level Ying Jow practitioner) learned it as "Jeet Kune" (Jie/Jeet same word). I believe that the form is the same though perhaps was modified when Lan Jie was conceived.

Apologies for my ignorance..was Lin Tan Fang a 7 star of PB practitioner? Thank you.

I've read Stuart Alve Olson's book. In my opinion he makes some wild conclusions based on some sketchy research. He tries to suggest Wang Lang and Zhang San Feng are the same people, and Taiji and Mantis are essentially the same style that descended differently, just coz of similar stories involving watching animals fighting. He goes on to list all these branches of Mantis which I highly doubt ever existed in Shandong. He also has some very sketchy explanations for things like 7 long 8 short.

Also, I believe Jeet Kune is a form taken from the Jingwu curriculum, but maybe Im wrong?

[LaterthanNever]

"He tries to suggest Wang Lang and Zhang San Feng are the same people,"

I must have missed that..interesting



"Also, I believe Jeet Kune is a form taken from the Jingwu curriculum, but maybe Im wrong? "

Possible. Though I believe the core Jing Wu sets were sort of absorbed from the styles which were taught under one roof(so to speak)?

[xiao yao]

You are right.... Jingwu was a bunch of different styles taught under one roof... but everybody had to learn Mizong Quan sets first I believe, which is why HK Mantis has so many long fist sets in their curriculum compared to Shandong styles