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Thread: Alan Orr Chi Sao to Gor Sao clip.

  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Dude what is your problem. I'm just a normal guy who enjoys Ving Tsun and the occasional scrape. Just because I'm not fighting for any belts or chuck Liddell next week it makes Ving Tsun rubbish does it? Why the f?,.k are you posting on here anyways. Chip off to an MMA forum and ply your evil trade there!
    Graham, isn't a chop to the throat circular??????

  2. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    BUT I ask this though:
    It has been proven over and over in various studies that the hook punch is one of the most powerful fist strikes ( arguably the most powerful), so why NOT adapt it to WC?
    This is a rather easy one to answer. Most applications of a hook will violate facing, centerline, and efficiency/economy of motion principles of wing chun. A 'good' hook will involve torquing of the body, which will almost always cause a long/short reach problem which also turns your facing from your opponent. In HFY WC, this would violate our box and/or gate theories, 2-line defense concepts, as well as the simple idea of 2 hands working as one.

    Now, there are times you will need this type of reaction, and that is typically in an emergency timeframe where the WC practitioner has lost either their space, facing, or both and needs to regain them. Typically in this instance I would say you could use the elbow vs. the fist, but I guess a hooking 'fist' would work as well.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  3. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Firstly, you can hook with vertical and/or horizontal fist

    Secondly, the scenario of the guy slipping and moving in is a fair thing. However if he doesn't move in?
    I'm not into "he does this I do that" either but if he keeps the same distance for me a hook could suit
    Firstly, I'm aware of the two types of hook punches, but I was specifically talking about keeping your elbow down and in the center while throwing a hook with a horizontal fist. If you can physically bend your wrist like that I'd like to see it, plus if you can punch like that and not break your wrist.

    Secondly, as I said that's a gamble. Your response relying on "if" he does this is gambling. Our first priority is to maintain center and position and disrupt theirs in order to keep striking them. If you rely on a gambling action like that you will possibly give up your entire position and the fight may go to the ground where your Wing Chun will for the most part be useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Mmmmmm..... I think the last thing you want to do is suggest boxings is inferior to WC as self defense. The evidence just isn't there
    Insofar as what tools they have to offer, boxing would need a lot of modification while Wing Chun is ready for different positions and different types of fighters. If you stuck strictly to a boxing game you wouldn't have enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Graham, isn't a chop to the throat circular??????
    Maybe a Karrody Chop...

    In Siu-nim-tau the faak-sau doesn't swing out because it isn't done with a straight arm. The movement begins at the elbow which stays low and leads the movement, causing the hand to travel, once again, in a straight line. It's most often done straight on as in the 2nd section of the dummy form and again later. But even when done sideways, it leads with the elbow so the hand travels in a straight line.

  4. #424
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    Firstly, I'm aware of the two types of hook punches, but I was specifically talking about keeping your elbow down and in the center while throwing a hook with a horizontal fist. If you can physically bend your wrist like that I'd like to see it, plus if you can punch like that and not break your wrist.

    I think we arent quite getting eachother here... no matter

    Secondly, as I said that's a gamble. Your response relying on "if" he does this is gambling. Our first priority is to maintain center and position and disrupt theirs in order to keep striking them. If you rely on a gambling action like that you will possibly give up your entire position and the fight may go to the ground where your Wing Chun will for the most part be useless.
    Ok, using that logic, in this clip PB chops to the throat (particularly with the left) a lot.... shouldnt he be controlling before he does that?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjcozWSvpjs


    Insofar as what tools they have to offer, boxing would need a lot of modification while Wing Chun is ready for different positions and different types of fighters. If you stuck strictly to a boxing game you wouldn't have enough.
    We shall agree to disagree here

    Maybe a Karrody Chop...

    In Siu-nim-tau the faak-sau doesn't swing out because it isn't done with a straight arm. The movement begins at the elbow which stays low and leads the movement, causing the hand to travel, once again, in a straight line. It's most often done straight on as in the 2nd section of the dummy form and again later. But even when done sideways, it leads with the elbow so the hand travels in a straight line.
    [/QUOTE]

    Well im watching that clip and ,maybe im hallucinating, but those hands look like a circular movement when he chops gto me

  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Ok, using that logic, in this clip PB chops to the throat (particularly with the left) a lot.... shouldnt he be controlling before he does that?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjcozWSvpjs
    A faak-sau keeps a low line with the elbow coming over the top of the opponent to suppress anything coming in and is done from a certain position. As with any regular punch, one should be hitting and not looking to control. The proper mechanics keep your center protected. It's not an open gamble like the hook punch in the scenario you created.

    Well im watching that clip and ,maybe im hallucinating, but those hands look like a circular movement when he chops gto me
    Unfortunately, he only has one hand and he's chopping with the left side. That makes it a little less clear, but because the elbow is out unlike a regular straight punch it may appear to be a circular movement. Slow it down and track the path of the "hand" though, and it follows a straight line to the target.

    Try this, from a rear wu-sau angle the forearm over a bit and extend your arm to a target directly in line with the center of your chest. If you keep your elbow in place, it is swinging only your hand and it goes in a circular motion (and will likely miss). Drive the action with your elbow down and moving forward and the hand follows a straight path from your chest to the target while suppressing the line. Wooden dummy, section 2.

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    it seems a case of the theory sounds fine and scientific when left as a stand alone theory, but the actual application is not so sound and not so scientific
    Because you haven't seen enough videos??

    I, and many others, have used the skills successfully "in the field" and the concepts have accurately performed the functions they were meant to perform, just as they did in "lab tests" in the training hall.

    That's the point of the system. It's for individual self-defense. I don't care if or not it gets on video, someone takes it to sporting competitions, or if other clowns bast@rdize the system.

    There's a theory. For me, it works in testing, works the same in the street, and that's that.

  7. #427
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    A faak-sau keeps a low line with the elbow coming over the top of the opponent to suppress anything coming in and is done from a certain position. As with any regular punch, one should be hitting and not looking to control. The proper mechanics keep your center protected. It's not an open gamble like the hook punch in the scenario you created.
    Yep get all that, but im pretty sure theres more thatn a few chops where he isnt really controlling the elbow... more he is being opportunistic when there is a hole/gap... ill have another look


    Unfortunately, he only has one hand and he's chopping with the left side. That makes it a little less clear, but because the elbow is out unlike a regular straight punch it may appear to be a circular movement. Slow it down and track the path of the "hand" though, and it follows a straight line to the target.
    Yep, you maybe right on that one looking at the line

    Try this, from a rear wu-sau angle the forearm over a bit and extend your arm to a target directly in line with the center of your chest. If you keep your elbow in place, it is swinging only your hand and it goes in a circular motion (and will likely miss). Drive the action with your elbow down and moving forward and the hand follows a straight path from your chest to the target while suppressing the line. Wooden dummy, section 2.
    To be honest, thats pretty much how i do it myself..... but i think theres a place for a circular chop as well

  8. #428
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    respectfully the 2nd guy either is looking for hands to chi sao with or he balls up and takes a beating so he's chasing hands or balling up so it seems.......

    Good aggression and entries on your part.

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    On the contrary the name "hook" may be confusing you. A hook by definition is not a straight line. If you're talking about a straight line, you're not talking about a hook.
    You must not have ever trained boxing and must have the hook punch confused with the haymaker punch.. With a hook, the fist travels in a straight line. It's simply moving from a lateral side of the opponent into the opponent.


    Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe WC principles are about dealing with attacks from and attacking with straight line punches from the centerline. I don't think WC deals with straight punches from the outside lateral dimension.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by LaRoux View Post
    You must not have ever trained boxing and must have the hook punch confused with the haymaker punch.. With a hook, the fist travels in a straight line. It's simply moving from a lateral side of the opponent into the opponent.


    Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe WC principles are about dealing with attacks from and attacking with straight line punches from the centerline. I don't think WC deals with straight punches from the outside lateral dimension.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Leoux is correct. I gave up talking to the other gentleman who has his own abstract idea of whata hook is.

    On your second point-good wing chun can handle hooks-bad wing chun will get you clocked.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Leoux is correct. I gave up talking to the other gentleman who has his own abstract idea of whata hook is.

    On your second point-good wing chun can handle hooks-bad wing chun will get you clocked.
    Out of curiosity, which WC techniques handle hooks?

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by LaRoux View Post
    Out of curiosity, which WC techniques handle hooks?
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Good question.
    With good wing chun training aqnd (gasp) lots of decent chi sao-one develops good timing and
    a sense for the line and speed of incoming power. If one has a good structure and footwork--
    any number of "techniques" can be useful depending on where your hands are----
    jong sao, reverse jut sao, kao sao, wu sao, short biu etc etc- you can also step out of the way
    or move in -depends on skill development.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by LaRoux View Post
    Out of curiosity, which WC techniques handle hooks?
    As I said before a proper hook is at a closer range than a WC straight punch and if you've allowed someone that close you've screwed up big time.
    So the answer to a proper hook is to keep them outside hooking range and hit them.

    A circular punch which is not a hook will be a swing and because the angle of the elbow is far less acute you can use a tan da against it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ali. R View Post
    I’ve sent a lot of overzealous men down to their knees with that... watch the wonderful reaction/whimper you’ll get from that person.

    The ‘ginger fist’ really works.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by LaRoux View Post
    Out of curiosity, which WC techniques handle hooks?
    Lmao ~ ! I had a "boxer" come up to me the other day at my gym ( Gleasons ) after watching us VT sparring and doing drills. He asked me ( friendly ) how would I deal with a right punch, I stood up and asked him to hit me like we would be in a face off. As he moved in I kicked him square in the midsection. He said it was the last thing he expected and was caught totally off guard. If I had unloaded on him as I have in real fights 100% force , it would look like he got hit with a shotgun and flew backwards through the air.
    If you think for a second a 'hook' will give me trouble..people dont realize how many different punching methods I can stop with a simple kick or angling offline to the leading striking arm.
    The best thing about the VT kick is that it is non telegraphic and comes from the same structural positions as we move and angle according to the leading striking arms. You cant see it coming. I can parry AND kick in the same action as your hook. Sadly many if not most VT school teach some kind of omnipotent blocking gate theory, that requires the idiot to stand tough and be a heavy bag doesnt work !
    Last edited by k gledhill; 01-27-2013 at 06:49 PM.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    Lmao ~ ! I had a "boxer" come up to me the other day at my gym ( Gleasons ) after watching us VT sparring and doing drills. He asked me ( friendly ) how would I deal with a right punch, I stood up and asked him to hit me like we would be in a face off. As he moved in I kicked him square in the midsection. He said it was the last thing he expected and was caught totally off guard. If I had unloaded on him as I have in real fights 100% force , it would look like he got hit with a shotgun and flew backwards through the air.
    Because, of course, teep kicks/VT leg kicks thrown by VT people will always make people look like they got hit by a shotgun when unleashed in a 'real fight' with '100% force'.... And LOL @ kicking boxers in the gut like its some magical solution.

    If you think for a second a 'hook' will give me trouble..people dont realize how many different punching methods I can stop with a simple kick or angling offline to the leading striking arm.
    Of course. And boxers avoid hooks like that all the time angling off. The only hook that gives you trouble is the one you don't see.

    The best thing about the VT kick is that it is non telegraphic and comes from the same structural positions as we move and angle according to the leading striking arms. You cant see it coming. I can parry AND kick in the same action as your hook. Sadly many if not most VT school teach some kind of omnipotent blocking gate theory, that requires the idiot to stand tough and be a heavy bag doesnt work !
    Again, some "magical" kick that shares about 98% of the characteristics of a MT teep or savate foet. This is simply exploiting boxers rule sets. Try that garbage in a free MMA sparring session where its allowed by rules and you'll get dumped on your behind with the inevitable follow-on mount and gnp.

    I had a guy try to ko me during an arguement outside a bar in London UK. He just took a wild 'hook ' swing...I moved my head back ( instinctively) 2 inches and he over swung..I then pak saoed his arm and threw 2-3 punches until he dropped into a car parked by the bar....people over analyze things like they have telepathic powers and can tell when to do x if he does y .
    Wow, you're really tough. Can you show us your bicep? Then maybe I'll admire it and stop over-analyzing.

    I train daily in a boxing gym. I analyze and exchange often with guys. I discuss techniques with coaches, etc...They ALL like the timing of parry & punch in one beat.
    Jut da, pak da, pak/kick, etc...who can argue the idea of attacking an attack as its made ?
    Exchange with boxers is about the only redeeming quality of the whole post.

    I am also asked by the boxing guys at Gleasons "how would you deal with a combo ? " I ask them to throw it and step back and introduce a new distance to them, kicking. I offer them in and angle, shift, and play their movements using VT tactical ideas. I work to a distance with direct powerful straight kicks to their leading leg from the foot upwards, sweeping overextending jabbing legs, stepping on feet ; )
    Yeah, a closer range also works there too. Just ask James Toney after getting low singled by Randy Couture, mounted and pounded out.

    And I'm not exactly sure how running away into kicking range embodies dealing with boxers combos. Anyone decent would pursue your flight out of the pocket to the longer distance range and not allow you to recover space.

    I give boxers the highest respect. They fight within the boundaries of their chosen field and tough mf's. If they adopted kicking I would think heavily about becoming a vt/boxer..formidable. ; )
    Boxing is a sweet science. Limited range, limited weapons, but a mastery over what is used. Then again, VT is also a sweet science. But it's not a science to defeat boxing by adding kicks and becoming kickboxing.

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