Alan Orr Chi Sao to Gor Sao clip.

[guy b.]

Could you please share your reasons?

Much better use of movement; stepping and angling. Obvious use of chi/gor sau as a skill enhancement tool rather than as a competitive hitgrapple. Lack of handchasing. Much better posture and power train engagement (e.g. relaxation of upper body, use of horse). No gaps left in time and space, correct mindset being trained.

Why? Don't you like the clips?

[GlennR]

Much better use of movement; stepping and angling. Obvious use of chi/gor sau as a skill enhancement tool rather than as a competitive hitgrapple. Lack of handchasing. Much better posture and power train engagement (e.g. relaxation of upper body, use of horse). No gaps left in time and space, correct mindset being trained.

Why? Don't you like the clips?

Youll regret asking that........ he'll respond with something about 5 layers, emei, snake, white crane, 1850, YKM transformation......... or just his smug "i know better" attitude.

Youve been warned!

[Alan Orr]

Much better use of movement; stepping and angling. Obvious use of chi/gor sau as a skill enhancement tool rather than as a competitive hitgrapple. Lack of handchasing. Much better posture and power train engagement (e.g. relaxation of upper body, use of horse). No gaps left in time and space, correct mindset being trained.

Why? Don't you like the clips?

Just goes to show how people can see something in such a different way depending on their background in training and experience.

Sounds like a different clips to me. I see bad posture, lots of hand chasing and unrealistic angles with stepping back into a opponent striking ranges for heavy punches, some good entering, but no horse power, back and shoulder muscles being used to much. At least he posts clips and its better than some.

Guy - whats your background? You seem follow the wsl method?

[Alan Orr]

Youll regret asking that........ he'll respond with something about 5 layers, emei, snake, white crane, 1850, YKM transformation......... or just his smug "i know better" attitude.

Youve been warned!

Maybe he does know better. If you don't understand something then best to just listen

[GlennR]

Maybe he does know better. If you don't understand something then best to just listen

And he would understand better because?

[Alan Orr]

I still don't understand why your guys aren't coming in on you upon loss of contact. In all three of these videos including the first video you posted in this thread, it appears as if they're literally just standing still when they could be coming in on you and pressuring you back. More importantly, by coming in on you, they'll actually improve their structure against you by the line of force changing of what you're trying to manipulate. For instance, if you're pulling on my arm, by myself not collapsing but allowing you to pull my whole body weight into the direction you pull, it will change the apex of force making you not only have to pull 200 lbs of body but it will freeze you for a moment forcing you to switch. It seems as if they're just pulling back against the direction of your pull with their arms instead of only pulling back to neutralize and lock the body together forcing you to move the whole body. Why are they bending at their waists when collapsing? Why isn't the whole body moving when being yanked on or pushed? Why are their arms coming up so high to protect their faces that there is no triangle to absorb/redirect force? If the upper arm is parallel to the ground and the force isn't coming from above, it has no structure, not even my personal opinion, fact.

I don't know man, I guess it's your style of Wing Chun, so whatever....

Yes they can't come in as they have loss balance control. When you use structure in the way I do then often the opponent is not able to set their power up, so it looks like they are not trying. We do not use a triangle in the arms to absorb force, as that gives you no defense of power or line of attack. Again unless you can feel the pressure it can be hard to understand why their reaction is such. Sai did post his feedback but no everyone listens.

I only post about styles, system, people than know and have had experience with, otherwise my views would not hold much weight. Also I train fighters so I have tested all these ideas with guys that fight.

[Alan Orr]

And he would understand better because?

I am just saying, if he is talking about something you don't understand then its best to listen. He does know about structure in the way I view it.

[GlennR]

I am just saying, if he is talking about something you don't understand then its best to listen. He does know about structure in the way I view it.

So because he agrees with you (or you think so) then i should listen to him??

And you assume i dont know about structure?

[guy b.]

Just goes to show how people can see something in such a different way depending on their background in training and experience.

Sounds like a different clips to me. I see bad posture, lots of hand chasing and unrealistic angles with stepping back into a opponent striking ranges for heavy punches, some good entering, but no horse power, back and shoulder muscles being used to much. At least he posts clips and its better than some.

Guy - whats your background? You seem follow the wsl method?

Chi sau is an error correcting drill to train the characteristic shape of wing chun, the striking path, feeling/habit based on keeping the shape, and mind/intention according to the kuen kit.

It is not a hitgrappling battle. You cannot train any of the characteristic wing chun methods when you do not use the drill as intended, especially when you do not move.

[guy b.]

So because he agrees with you (or you think so) then i should listen to him??

And you assume i dont know about structure?

Alan appears to base all of his arguments on this tautology

[k gledhill]

Chi sau is an error correcting drill to train the characteristic shape of wing chun, the striking path, feeling/habit based on keeping the shape, and mind/intention according to the kuen kit.

It is not a hitgrappling battle. You cannot train any of the characteristic wing chun methods when you do not use the drill as intended, especially when you do not move.

Good post. Energy exchange is often confused with over pressurization. Like playing a musical instrument, one hand does one thing and the other another...
Not both hands smashing the keys of a piano. Skill not brawn.

[Alan Orr]

Good post. Energy exchange is often confused with over pressurization. Like playing a musical instrument, one hand does one thing and the other another...
Not both hands smashing the keys of a piano. Skill not brawn.

Also skill has to stand up to real pressure as well.

[Alan Orr]

Alan appears to base all of his arguments on this tautology

No arguments. You have a view based on what you think. That's fine. I don't agree with your views. I know the style you are talking about and have crossed hands with many top guys so I do know what is the difference first hand. That's it. When I ask you about your background you don't answer. You just repeat the same stuff.

[Alan Orr]

Chi sau is an error correcting drill to train the characteristic shape of wing chun, the striking path, feeling/habit based on keeping the shape, and mind/intention according to the kuen kit.

It is not a hitgrappling battle. You cannot train any of the characteristic wing chun methods when you do not use the drill as intended, especially when you do not move.

Chi Sao is many things. How you use it depends on your level of understanding and skill. We have basic drilling for beginners. Then we move into more live drilling and then move live free play. Again it's what we do and may not be what you do. The test of which works is down to using it. Posted what you think all the time is a waste of time.

[guy b.]

Also skill has to stand up to real pressure as well.

Sparring (preferably against people you don't know) tests how your shape stands up to pressure, while drills and forms refine technique deficiency and repair mitakes highlighted during sparring. On this basis you are doing a drill incorrectly in your clip