Alan Orr Chi Sao to Gor Sao clip.

[k gledhill]

My strategy: I don't "simultaneous defence and attack." Attack is my defence.

Agree [like] VT is developing the skills to intercept incoming lines of force at us at the same time we are attempting to execute 'attacking'. So I dont eat a punch on the way in , etc...mindlessly.

Ambush attacking, with the ability to maintain a calm relentless finish.

[Phil Redmond]

hey id settle for simply sparring clips with a bit of contact

surely they must be more Numerous?

Here's a couple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7LXC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS2WUlq8C0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb9-K...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP05PC3ReW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39-unagGqPw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1bSkRY3iWI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSCcj6PbLo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-TT-6JeSZE

[k gledhill]

Here's a couple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7LXC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS2WUlq8C0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb9-K...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP05PC3ReW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39-unagGqPw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1bSkRY3iWI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSCcj6PbLo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-TT-6JeSZE

@ 58 years old thats inspiring to a lot of couch potatoes

[Frost]

Here's a couple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7LXC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS2WUlq8C0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb9-K...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP05PC3ReW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39-unagGqPw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1bSkRY3iWI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSCcj6PbLo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-TT-6JeSZE

was on about Kevin and the PB crowd, i know you spar phil we have been through this!

[k gledhill]

was on about Kevin and the PB crowd, i know you spar phil we have been through this!

He knows, so do we all, you're here to bait and rag on anything kg and pb ...RMM

[chris bougeard]

Mr Gledhill,

You seem very quick to criticize any clips people put up. You also are very keen to explain in some detail what people are doing wrong in these clips. Criticism is good and to be expected whenever people post clips, thats a given. However, you seem to be very reluctant to show all us practitioners who are stumbling around in the dark how to do things right via the medium you are so quick to criticize : video.

So how about you put up a clip of your chi sao/ gor sao, not a clip of someone who does "what you do" but a clip of you and one of your students. I for one would be interested in seeing all of the endless advice you have in application, always good seeing how other lineages apply themselves.

[Alan Orr]

Although I wasn’t named (don’t feel bad I know you meant me as well) I’ll answer
My main criitism is that we see lots of chi say clips, almost no sparing clips and certainly even less fighting clips from the schools that post these clips, they seem to think chi sau is the big training secret, I have always stated that structure falls apart under pressure... well alan does pressure test his guys, he has plenty of clips of them sparring and fighting MMA and thai

And because its only part of his training, and he is trying to get away from all the bull and actually posts fighting and hard sparring. I don’t mind this clip, personally id rather do light clinch work than this, but im not a wing chun guy
If Kevin posted clips of just chi sau, and kept talking about how scientific wing chun fighting was i wouldn’t be impressed, if he also posted clips of his guys fighting full contact I might be and I wouldn’t rag on him, people posting endless chi sau clips without hard sparring and fighting clips is for me pointless as we can’t see the end result
As I say the clip for me isn’t anything special but alans not pretending it is, its just part of his training, but I appreciate there is pressure being applied and more importantly we can see by alans sparring and fighting clips of his students the outcome for him this sort of training brings

Good points.

[Alan Orr]

Any reason you guys don't use head gear of some sort?

Some of my guys do when we are doing heavy Chinese Boxing sparring for fights. But never for chi sao as I think it trains the wrong thing. Guys just chain punching each other in head guards is not like a real fight, also to me is training the wrong thing - not to deal with the punch. Guys need to learn when they been hit what to do to stay in the fight. The head guard guys don't even know when they been hit. That's just my view of it. Also the other side of it is when attacking in Chi Sao we like to learn to control our power and explosiveness, then all you need to do is had an extra bite to it when its for real.

[LoneTiger108]

In Okinawa they have a saying:
100 styles, 100 sanchin.

I think it is time for WC to adapt that saying for chi sao:
100 styles, 100 chi sao's
Because it is very clear that each system, each style, indeed, each lineage, has their OWN idea of Chi sao.

Pretty sad really if we have to follow in line with people that could never agree on their stuff!

What I think you are seeing is te way people express their ideas of chisau in 'words' is very different from family to family, Sifu to Sifu. But I bet that if you crossed hands with all the people that show these differences their Chisau will be pretty similar.

Using words to express actions isn't the best idea when the original meaning has already been manipulated and in some cases lost entirely.

[Alan Orr]

Anyone who trains realistically WILL get hit. Even if it's your student. Some Sifus get upset if a student hits them so students are sometimes reluctant to really hit back. I've told students that hit me good job. I should've covered the line. . .

Very true Phil

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some of my guys do when we are doing heavy Chinese Boxing sparring for fights. But never for chi sao as I think it trains the wrong thing. Guys just chain punching each other in head guards is not like a real fight, also to me is training the wrong thing - not to deal with the punch. Guys need to learn when they been hit what to do to stay in the fight. The head guard guys don't even know when they been hit. That's just my view of it. Also the other side of it is when attacking in Chi Sao we like to learn to control our power and explosiveness, then all you need to do is had an extra bite to it when its for real.

Well, I think you need to make "hard enough" contact to keep things honest and the reactions honest and if you want a guy to learn how to deal with being hit, you need to hit him.
Not sure what head guards you are thinking of...

[Alan Orr]

Here's a couple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7LXC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS2WUlq8C0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb9-K...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP05PC3ReW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39-unagGqPw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1bSkRY3iWI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSCcj6PbLo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-TT-6JeSZE

I like it. See - different style, different views. But the common ground is testing it, putting clips up, sharing, and not just repeating what their teach told them.
Great work Phil

[Alan Orr]

Easy to copy, amazingly difficult to maintain correct energy focus, under increasing pressures and speeds. This IS the idea we are using to attack people with, mental pressure , relentless attacking skills, will induce errors...hopefully

Lat sao jik chun IS the fundamental striking idea that makes or breaks VT.

Lat sao Jik chun is just part of wing chun is not wing chun. Wing Chun is much deeper than that.

[Frost]

Well, I think you need to make "hard enough" contact to keep things honest and the reactions honest and if you want a guy to learn how to deal with being hit, you need to hit him.
Not sure what head guards you are thinking of...

He probably means those bubble plastic head guards you see most wing chun using, and it does become chain punching conest with those for the most part lol

[Alan Orr]

He probably means those bubble plastic head guards you see most wing chun using, and it does become chain punching conest with those for the most part lol

Correct, too funny. So many bad clips of that.