Dragon style

[sanjuro_ronin]

if you ever read ginger fists old posts on here, the seed art for him was a hakka art way before it went to the temple to become southern mantis, since both CLC and dragons creator studied the same hakka fist art in their youth its not too hard to think they all come from the same seed fist, was that fist a hakka one brought to the south by the hakka or something else, who honestly knows its been so long all i know is that they are fun to practise

Controversy may be that the Okinawan styles may have it right all along...

[Frost]

Controversy may be that the Okinawan styles may have it right all along...

controversy and chinese arts go hand in hand lol
its amazing to me how many nameless monks walked around china teaching these guys their super secret arts....hey why couldnt someone just say look im a tough son of a b*tch i have survived war, violence and dead matches and this is the art i have created...but oh no they all seemed to find a secret monk to learn from

[sanjuro_ronin]

controversy and chinese arts go hand in hand lol
its amazing to me how many nameless monks walked around china teaching these guys their super secret arts....hey why couldnt someone just say look im a tough son of a b*tch i have survived war, violence and dead matches and this is the art i have created...but oh no they all seemed to find a secret monk to learn from

Well, its pretty much accepted that the "old monk taught me" or the "inspired by an animal" thing was just a TCMA tradition used to add "flavour" to a system that was developed by simple trial and error on the part of the Master.
It wasn't misleading anyone ( as it would be now for example) but just a standard tradtion.
Popular in Japan too, many a RYU was developed by "divine revelation" of by the teachings of a Tengu, LOL !

[Faruq]

If it's a variant of Lung Ying, could just be that it is called that because who ever learned it began to teach it in Fukien. That's an origin story I've heard for some branches of Lung Ying.

If it's a completely different system, all I would guess is that it was founded in Fukien and/or is said to come from the Southern Shaolin temple in Fukien.

Fukien is Fujian, btw. If that's what you meant.

I wonder if there's the possibility of it originating from Northern Dragon, and then moving south?

I can't remember where I saw this, but I remember seeing something that said that Lung Ying was originally Eagle style, but for some reason they changed the name to Dragon there in Southern China. Anyone here that before?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can't remember where I saw this, but I remember seeing something that said that Lung Ying was originally Eagle style, but for some reason they changed the name to Dragon there in Southern China. Anyone here that before?

Nope, if that is the case, a LOT more than just a name was changed if by eagle you mean eagle claw.

[Frost]

Well, its pretty much accepted that the "old monk taught me" or the "inspired by an animal" thing was just a TCMA tradition used to add "flavour" to a system that was developed by simple trial and error on the part of the Master.
It wasn't misleading anyone ( as it would be now for example) but just a standard tradtion.
Popular in Japan too, many a RYU was developed by "divine revelation" of by the teachings of a Tengu, LOL !

what may not have ben misleading and was standard practise back them,,,casues a cluster f*ck of problems these days,...............

[sanjuro_ronin]

what may not have ben misleading and was standard practise back them,,,casues a cluster f*ck of problems these days,...............

Well duh !
LOL !

[Dr.Rob]

All valid points. You guys truely see the modern issue and its implications of poor records. Never was the term "new and improved" used. Or modified? Just plainly " ancient tradtion of temple kung fu passed to me by a great a secret monk" so you can't trace it...therefore you must believe me.

The Eagle term that Frost mentioned...i have heard several times. If you look at Golden Eagle...you can see the hakka vein. Now? could it be some unsavoury dude wanted to link his kung fu with the roots of another successful style for street cred? Maybe.?

I see things this way...
From wiki so it must be true..."Lam Yiu Gwai and Jeung Lai Chuen were good friends from their youth in the Dongjiang region of Huizhou, longtime training partners and later cousins by marriage. Lam and Jeung would open several schools together, and Southern Dragon style and Jeung's style of Bak Mei share many similarities."

Lam Yiu Gwai had learned BaK Mei orginally, then modified it based on his body type. Thick torso, strong as bull, low centre of gravity. That would mean the phoneix eye fist (rapid footwork, dodging and speed) would not be as effective. So he switched to a flat fist. (rooted, hitting with the rear leg pushing)

So in fact another system, with a completely other biomechanical superiority theory. ???

[Frost]

I thought dragon pre dated bak me (and CLC actually learned from Lams uncle this family style) and that lam yiu gwai simply put all his teachings into a coherent structure that we now know as modern dragon?
From what I remember they both trained the same base hakka art , hence the shared similarities jik bo and 16 steps are an awful lot alike lol, and the difference coming from their other teachers and as you say their size difference

[sanjuro_ronin]

I thought dragon pre dated bak me (and CLC actually learned from Lams uncle this family style) and that lam yiu gwai simply put all his teachings into a coherent structure that we now know as modern dragon?
From what I remember they both trained the same base hakka art , hence the shared similarities jik bo and 16 steps are an awful lot alike lol, and the difference coming from their other teachers and as you say their size difference

Some have argued that snake predates Dragon and that dragon was used to give a more "celestial" sound to the system.

[Dr.Rob]

Frost. Got me there... Never heard that one?

[Hebrew Hammer]

Lam Yiu Gwai had learned BaK Mei orginally, then modified it based on his body type. Thick torso, strong as bull, low centre of gravity. That would mean the phoneix eye fist (rapid footwork, dodging and speed) would not be as effective. So he switched to a flat fist. (rooted, hitting with the rear leg pushing)

So in fact another system, with a completely other biomechanical superiority theory. ???

Please forgive my ignorance as I'm not familiar with these styles but this makes total sense to me...so what did Lam Yiu Gwai modify Bak Mei into? Lama Pai? Or something else? I'd like to see some samples of the above described style if they're available. Anyone know if vids are available?

Just curious because that body description sounds like me to an extent and want to see style customized towards that.

[Ng Jit]

Hey Gabriel, long time no see. Haven't seen you since Sifu Manny's B-day. How have you been?


Anyway, Sifu Martin and Peter Pena are both in AZ. The school in San Diego is a Bagua school if I am not mistaken.


I hope this helps,

RP2

Ya Sifu Martin had told me he was moving to Arizona. I had just looked up his page. I am not sure what went on with the school. Originally I was his student when he taught next door in the Taoist temple and then visited for periods of time at the school next door.

When I left about 10 years ago or so he was talking about going to Arizona. So I suppose this probably is the case... As for personal conversations I will PM you LOL...

[sanjuro_ronin]

All valid points. You guys truely see the modern issue and its implications of poor records. Never was the term "new and improved" used. Or modified? Just plainly " ancient tradtion of temple kung fu passed to me by a great a secret monk" so you can't trace it...therefore you must believe me.

The Eagle term that Frost mentioned...i have heard several times. If you look at Golden Eagle...you can see the hakka vein. Now? could it be some unsavoury dude wanted to link his kung fu with the roots of another successful style for street cred? Maybe.?

I see things this way...
From wiki so it must be true..."Lam Yiu Gwai and Jeung Lai Chuen were good friends from their youth in the Dongjiang region of Huizhou, longtime training partners and later cousins by marriage. Lam and Jeung would open several schools together, and Southern Dragon style and Jeung's style of Bak Mei share many similarities."

Lam Yiu Gwai had learned BaK Mei orginally, then modified it based on his body type. Thick torso, strong as bull, low centre of gravity. That would mean the phoneix eye fist (rapid footwork, dodging and speed) would not be as effective. So he switched to a flat fist. (rooted, hitting with the rear leg pushing)

So in fact another system, with a completely other biomechanical superiority theory. ???

I don't know...force multipliers work for all body types really.
They tend to be priortized in "inclose" fighting systems for a few reasons, the main being they increase the percussive effect ( which you need since you have less momentum based force) and because the fist has less to travel, better chance of hitting the target so a "pin point" strike has a better chance inclose than from the "outside".
With a "thick torso, strong as a bull and low center" you'd think he prefer to be inclose.
Like the Goju/Uechi guys who also use lots of "PE fists".
If her was more "stocky" I can see him preferring " lots of powerful singles" to "machine gun combos" but I don't see the PE fist being viewed as ""not as effective".

[Frost]

Frost. Got me there... Never heard that one?

Lam learned from his father Lam Yun who was a store owner and whose family was trained in the east river fist arts, what they called the hakka influenced arts back then, he also learned the arts at the local temples on the near by luo fo mountains , he spent years there of and on perfecting his already good skills

Cheung Lai Chuen began learning the martial methods of the Wanderer's Sect, or Lau Man), in his youth under the tutelage of the local bonesetter and martial teacher Lam Sek (林石). Cheung's second instructor was Lei Mung of Lei Yi's lineage from whom he learned an array of mid-ranged and close quarter unarmed methods and weapons native to Lei Ga (李; more commonly known as the Li, or Lee, Family System). The young prodigy was then trained in Lung Ying Kyun by master Lam Yun - who was the father of famed Dragon Style founder Lam Yiu Gwai and Lam Ah Hap who was his uncle…and then of course he met his final teacher in the temple

So CLC learned Lam family style which would later become Dragon, of course being friends and related by marriage they shared techniques and sets