Dragon style

[Frost]

I don't know...force multipliers work for all body types really.
They tend to be priortized in "inclose" fighting systems for a few reasons, the main being they increase the percussive effect ( which you need since you have less momentum based force) and because the fist has less to travel, better chance of hitting the target so a "pin point" strike has a better chance inclose than from the "outside".
With a "thick torso, strong as a bull and low center" you'd think he prefer to be inclose.
Like the Goju/Uechi guys who also use lots of "PE fists".
If her was more "stocky" I can see him preferring " lots of powerful singles" to "machine gun combos" but I don't see the PE fist being viewed as ""not as effective".

there are a few theories on why he removed them from the art (or held them back until latter sets) one is that he felt it was too dangerous to be taught, the other was that with his size and skill he didnt need them
Lam from what we can see did like to be in close but like to use more angles stepping and take the opponents balance than the normal firece straight attack method you see in bakmei, he also used a lot of hammer fist strikes where he could sink his body weight behind the strikes (these dont need the PE fist to be effective)...he had a lot of body weight to sink lol

[Runlikehell]

I thought dragon pre dated bak me (and CLC actually learned from Lams uncle this family style) and that lam yiu gwai simply put all his teachings into a coherent structure that we now know as modern dragon?
From what I remember they both trained the same base hakka art , hence the shared similarities jik bo and 16 steps are an awful lot alike lol, and the difference coming from their other teachers and as you say their size difference

I read a theory on another board (I'll have to find the post again, had it saved on my old PC) that was similar in parts to your post and Dr. Rob's.

The gist of the post was that Lam Yiu Kwai and Cheung Lai Chuen had either learned the same arts, or that what eventually became Lung Ying and Bak Mei respectively were originally intended to be the same thing. The only difference was to have been the power generation between the two.
However, Lam Yiu Kwai then modified it based on his body style.

I'm not sure if that's 100% exact to what I read, and it was just a theory (from someone who I believe had studied both arts).

[Frost]

I read a theory on another board (I'll have to find the post again, had it saved on my old PC) that was similar in parts to your post and Dr. Rob's.

The gist of the post was that Lam Yiu Kwai and Cheung Lai Chuen had either learned the same arts, or that what eventually became Lung Ying and Bak Mei respectively were originally intended to be the same thing. The only difference was to have been the power generation between the two.
However, Lam Yiu Kwai then modified it based on his body style.

I'm not sure if that's 100% exact to what I read, and it was just a theory (from someone who I believe had studied both arts).

Alot of people study both arts together (I know I do lol) as they stayed close friends and opened several schools together it’s not that uncommon to find teachers of both

Mantis108 had some good posts on the history of the arts basically CLC studied with three main teachers, one of whom was Lams father or uncle, then formulated bakmei after training with a fourth person in a temple
Lam trained with his family and then hit the local temples and had an additional 3 teachers, 2 buddhist 1 Taoist and formulated his style

So same base art in their youth hence the simulatires in the two arts, but different finishing teachers hence the differences

[sanjuro_ronin]

there are a few theories on why he removed them from the art (or held them back until latter sets) one is that he felt it was too dangerous to be taught, the other was that with his size and skill he didnt need them
Lam from what we can see did like to be in close but like to use more angles stepping and take the opponents balance than the normal firece straight attack method you see in bakmei, he also used a lot of hammer fist strikes where he could sink his body weight behind the strikes (these dont need the PE fist to be effective)...he had a lot of body weight to sink lol

Perhaps, or maybe he just didn't like them ( like me with finger strikes).
Who really knows BUT it is fun to speculate

[Frost]

Perhaps, or maybe he just didn't like them ( like me with finger strikes).
Who really knows BUT it is fun to speculate

Yep what else are we going to do...actual work..or worse still train?!?!

[sanjuro_ronin]

That might involve perspiration.
Eww.

[Frost]

That might involve perspiration.
Eww.

its ok i have the solution go internal and do tai chi

[sanjuro_ronin]

its ok i have the solution go internal and do tai chi

Gay....

Going back on topic, LOL, I think that if we were to go back enough, we'd find one style that was the grandparent of all these short hand systems.
They share far too much to have been "thought up out of thin air".
Deep down I don't think it matters that much of course since fighting systems MUST adapt and evolve to survive BUT I think it is important in the sense that practitioners should accept that they are NOT doing anything "special and unique" just a different expression.

[Frost]

Gay....

Going back on topic, LOL, I think that if we were to go back enough, we'd find one style that was the grandparent of all these short hand systems.
They share far too much to have been "thought up out of thin air".
Deep down I don't think it matters that much of course since fighting systems MUST adapt and evolve to survive BUT I think it is important in the sense that practitioners should accept that they are NOT doing anything "special and unique" just a different expression.

everyone likes to be special and unique dont burst my buble little man or else!!!


You are right on all accounts though we should accept the examples of those old guys, Lam sort out everyone he could to spar/fight and trade/learn from, he never thought what he had was the best his art evolved and changed as he did

CLC also changed over his career, so much so that hong kong and mainland bakmei have different sets, different height stances and so on, when he beat someone and they started to teach his art they added the flavour of their pervious style

was bakmei the ultimate martial art...or was CLC simply one of the best fighters of his generation, and just because he made it would doesn't mean its so special that i can make it work without the same hard work he put in lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

everyone likes to be special and unique dont burst my buble little man or else!!!


You are right on all accounts though we should accept the examples of those old guys, Lam sort out everyone he could to spar/fight and trade/learn from, he never thought what he had was the best his art evolved and changed as he did

CLC also changed over his career, so much so that hong kong and mainland bakmei have different sets, different height stances and so on, when he beat someone and they started to teach his art they added the flavour of their pervious style

was bakmei the ultimate martial art...or was CLC simply one of the best fighters of his generation, and just because he made it would doesn't mean its so special that i can make it work without the same hard work he put in lol

And you hit on the crucial element that so many seem to either forget or ignore or not know:
These MA came to be from fighting and those master came to be reknown from fighting.
NOT each other but other fighters and other systems.
Short hand systems were not developed to fight against OTHER short hand systems, much less against each other and as a matter of fact, many lineages have rules about doing just that.
Of course one must train with what one has but the thing is that the masters of old, due to their extensive fighting eperience KNEW what other systems look liked, what they did, the puzzles they presented and because of that, even though a Dragon stylist trained with another dragon stylist, the master taught them how to deal with a CLF or HK or northern mantis, etc.
When did we lose that?
When the classes went from a few to a few dozen.
It is my view that when an old time master taught a student how to deal with a round kick (as en example), he did NOT do it from a "dragon style" POV but from what the student would probably be fighting.

A modern example would be a Dragong Style Sifu teaching a student how to deal with a MT low round kick by throwing him a - wait for it- MT LOW ROUND KICK !
Crazy, I know !

[Faruq]

CLC also changed over his career, so much so that hong kong and mainland bakmei have different sets, different height stances and so on

Which is more effective and deadly; mainland or Hong Kong style?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Which is more effective and deadly; mainland or Hong Kong style?

The one that best suits you

[Faruq]

Wow, Ronin. I get your point. But I'm still wondering if a mainland Bak Mei master and a Hong Kong Bak Mei master got into a fight over a $1,000 gambling debt; which one would win. I guess that's a question that can never really be answered. You always do seem to cut through all the BS and get straight to the meat of the matter so I should've expected you to answer like this, lol.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wow, Ronin. I get your point. But I'm still wondering if a mainland Bak Mei master and a Hong Kong Bak Mei master got into a fight over a $1,000 gambling debt; which one would win. I guess that's a question that can never really be answered. You always do seem to cut through all the BS and get straight to the meat of the matter so I should've expected you to answer like this, lol.

The answer to that question is actually real simple, the practitioner that is the best fighter well have the better chance of winning.
Think of it this way:
A guy with a .44 magnum VS a guy with a .22.
You'd think the .44 has the best chance but if the guy with the magnum doesn't know how to use it when it counts and misses his shots and the guy with the .22 hits him in the head and heart with every single shot, well...

[Faruq]

But there you know the .44 is the better gun that does more damage and is more powerful. The circumstances of course matter greatly as you indicated, but you get me. With mainland vs Hong Kong there's no well this one's the .44 and that one's the .22. I guess its like the age old which would win Wing Chun or Bak Mei Pai? We'll never get a definitive answer, lol...