Sansik/Sansau v.s. Ip Man The Three Forms

[imperialtaichi]

Promised not to hijack Hendrik's thread, so let's start anew.

Not that I want to get into it here but I will say this... Far too much is emphasis is put on Leung Jans 'Kulo period' which was at the end of his martial art life, his retirement methods so to speak. It should be understood that he did not teach his 12 hands throughout, just at the end, so it shouldn't be concentrated on so much IMHO unless you just want a 'quick fix'. Great for that, not so great for getting a complete picture of Wing Chun like Ip Mans curriculums IMHO.

And yes, some in the Lee family have these methods but they too are far older (from an earlier generation) than the current trends, and so are different again.

1. I see, "Lee family... are far older than the current trends, and are so different again."; you are sounding just like someone on the other thread. btw, what current trends you are referring to?

2. Who is putting "far too much emphasis on Leung Jan's Kulo Period"?

3. Why would you call it a quick fix?

I have total respect with Ip Man's WC. I have total respect WSL, TST and Wan Kam Leung. I was doing Ip Man's line for years (since 1987) before I started Kulo. Ip Man's WC definitely has a lot of depth. At the same time I can assure you Kulo is far from a "quick fix."

I'm not a guy who cares much about lineage. I care about what works.

[LoneTiger108]

I'm not a guy who cares much about lineage. I care about what works.

Well having you tell me I sound like 'someone else' I think I will throw that one rightbackattcha!

But seriously...

1. What current trends you are referring to?

Anything that comes from Kulo that is 'more' than Leung Jans 12 hands.

2. Who is putting "far too much emphasis on Leung Jan's Kulo Period"?

Er... anyone who promotes Kulo WCK as Leung Jans complete system (??) It was just a brief time in his life that he taught this way, rather like Ip Mans HK years actually. It's great stuff, so don't get me wrong, but good quality Wing Chun will already have much of what you are training within their curriculums.

And it so happens my own Sigung also had contact with the Fung family too, but that is a different animal altogether IMHO.

3. Why would you call it a quick fix?

Because that's what it was before people started to treat it as the 'ultimate' or 'higher level' WCK. I know this from being involved with the first family to ever promote this stuff back in the early eighties

I have total respect with Ip Man's WC. I have total respect WSL, TST and Wan Kam Leung. I was doing Ip Man's line for years (since 1987) before I started Kulo. Ip Man's WC definitely has a lot of depth.
At the same time I can assure you Kulo is far from a "quick fix."

Your point is taken John. You see Kulo as a whole system and that's cool. And I'm not trying to say that you have no respect for Ip Man stuff, but from what I'm reading you have very little experience of Ip Man WCK outside of WSLs way and sound pretty like many who just talk the fight all day without showing us you can actually do that, much like others here too.

[imperialtaichi]

Anything that comes from Kulo that is 'more' than Leung Jans 12 hands.

Ah, I see, another one of those "mine is the real deal, everyone else' fake."

anyone who promotes Kulo WCK as Leung Jans complete system (??) It was just a brief time in his life that he taught this way, rather like Ip Mans HK years actually. It's great stuff, so don't get me wrong, but good quality Wing Chun will already have much of what you are training within their curriculums.

As I mentioned 1,000,000 times before, WC is WC. Same root different angle. In the end, it's about what works when.

Because that's what it was before people started to treat it as the 'ultimate' or 'higher level' WCK. I know this from being involved with the first family to ever promote this stuff back in the early eighties

Your word, not mine. I don't really care sales pitch. You should know nothing is more superior than others.

Your point is taken John. You see Kulo as a whole system and that's cool. And I'm not trying to say that you have no respect for Ip Man stuff, but from what I'm reading you have very little experience of Ip Man WCK outside of WSLs way and sound pretty like many who just talk the fight all day without showing us you can actually do that, much like others here too.

You know very little about me to make such BIG claims.

I started off heavily involved in TST line. My encounter with late WSL was very brief. I had learnt from Derek Fung (a student of Ip Man) for a while. Master Wan Kam Leung had shown me stuff but I am not his student.

Before you say I just "do the talk", at least I demonstrate my fighting methods on video, for people to dissect, more than many on this forum, and much more than YOU. What I post on videos is directly related to how I would apply them in a fight. And I am NOT afraid to cross hands with people. I make that public.

If anyone wants to find me, I play with different stylists at UTS KFC (University of Technology, Sydney Kung Fu Club) almost every week. I like it there because NO ONE talks anyone down, no one pretends to be superior, no one tries to push their agenda down someone's throat and everyone shares freely.

[LoneTiger108]

Ah, I see, another one of those "mine is the real deal, everyone else' fake."

Hmmm... have I touched a nerve or something?

You sound like I have because I never mentioned that anything beyond the 12 hands isn't the 'real deal'. I just have an opinion that the 12 hands my Sigung learnt was of an older flavour than what I see coming out of Kulo and China today. Whether that be 22 point or 40. Makes no difference to me. They're all developments/additions of the original 12 IMHHO.

Besides, I do not condone teaching the method in our family because that was the explicit instruction from my Sigung. It was his own personal stuff and nothing to do with what he was promoting for Ip Man. Other families have come out sionce, which I believe is a great great thing!

As I mentioned 1,000,000 times before, WC is WC. Same root different angle. In the end, it's about what works when.

What works when??? That is what decides if ones Wing Chun is or isn't Wing Chun? I can't agree with that. Sorry.

Your word, not mine. I don't really care sales pitch. You should know nothing is more superior than others.

Oh I do!! Believe me!! Maybe you're misjudging my writings? It seems so but I'm sorry if I don't believe. Marketing seems to be your 'thing' but I can't show your site now because it's gone offline for some reason!! You had some wayward opportunities for 'being the only representative in your country to be authorised to teach Kulo 22' my friend. Sounded like marketing to me...

You know very little about me to make such BIG claims

I started off heavily involved in TST line. My encounter with late WSL was very brief. I had learnt from Derek Fung (a student of Ip Man) for a while. Master Wan Kam Leung had shown me stuff but I am not his student.

Before you say I just "do the talk", at least I demonstrate my fighting methods on video, for people to dissect, more than many on this forum, and much more than YOU. What I post on videos is directly related to how I would apply them in a fight. And I am NOT afraid to cross hands with people. I make that public.

If anyone wants to find me, I play with different stylists at UTS KFC (University of Technology, Sydney Kung Fu Club) almost every week. I like it there because NO ONE talks anyone down, no one pretends to be superior, no one tries to push their agenda down someone's throat and everyone shares freely.

Well thanks for letting me in a little and sharing your background. Now I do know more about you, so we won't have these misunderstandings rear up again in the future will we?

Somehow I don't think so either

[LoneTiger108]

"Opportunity does not knock twice.

Be the FIRST certified Kulo Leung Jan 22 representative
in your country/region.

Once you have seen Kulo Wing Chun in action, you will see how effective, and how adaptive it is. In today's world, where people want immediate benefit from their training, Leung Jan's 22 Essential Movement Set has almost all the ingredients to become a successful worldwide phenomen. The only missing ingredient is YOU.

We are looking for associates/representatives to introduce this unique style to your part of the world. Imagine the opportunity it will bring you if every person in your country who wants to learn about the Kulo Wing Chun has to go through no one but you.

If you think you have what it takes, email us at kulowingchun@gmail.com"

It doesn't look like you 'don't care' for marketing here John. And it seems to mention something like a 'quick fix' too??

[CFT]

Immediate benefit does not equate to "quick fix", in my opinion. To me, "immediate benefit" means being able to use your training to some degree from the get go, not doing SNT or sitting in stance for a year.

Kulo/Gulao WCK should ultimately give the same end results as any other lineage of WCK. You just have a different organisation in curriculum and training methods. OK admittedly there appear to be some stylistic differences too.

But I agree the latter half of the excerpt sounds like pure marketing. Bid for your KL22 franchise here ...

[imperialtaichi]

"Opportunity does not knock twice.

Be the FIRST certified Kulo Leung Jan 22 representative
in your country/region.

Once you have seen Kulo Wing Chun in action, you will see how effective, and how adaptive it is. In today's world, where people want immediate benefit from their training, Leung Jan's 22 Essential Movement Set has almost all the ingredients to become a successful worldwide phenomen. The only missing ingredient is YOU.

We are looking for associates/representatives to introduce this unique style to your part of the world. Imagine the opportunity it will bring you if every person in your country who wants to learn about the Kulo Wing Chun has to go through no one but you.

If you think you have what it takes, email us at kulowingchun@gmail.com"

It doesn't look like you 'don't care' for marketing here John. And it seems to mention something like a 'quick fix' too??

Yep, I am the only person in our line outside China promoting it. Am I not allowed to spread it in this free world? Or should I simply let it die?

Spencer, you used to be cool, why are you getting so angry at everyone lately?

[sanjuro_ronin]

WC WAS developed to be a "quick fix" at least according to some legends.

Minimal forms, weapons based on hand techniques ( no not the other way around), focusing on principles over techniques, etc.

All signs pointing to a system designed to be learned and apply "sooner rather than later".

[imperialtaichi]

Immediate benefit does not equate to "quick fix", in my opinion. To me, "immediate benefit" means being able to use your training to some degree from the get go, not doing SNT or sitting in stance for a year.

Kulo/Gulao WCK should ultimately give the same end results as any other lineage of WCK. You just have a different organisation in curriculum and training methods. OK admittedly there appear to be some stylistic differences too.

But I agree the latter half of the excerpt sounds like pure marketing. Bid for your KL22 franchise here ...

Thanks. I agree.

Yes, I do wish more people can benefit from it. But I'm definitely not forcing this down anyone's throat like others, nor knocking anyone else' school, nor claiming anyone else being inferior on the site.

At least I'm honourable in my approach.

[imperialtaichi]

WC WAS developed to be a "quick fix" at least according to some legends.

Minimal forms, weapons based on hand techniques ( no not the other way around), focusing on principles over techniques, etc.

All signs pointing to a system designed to be learned and apply "sooner rather than later".

Yep. Thanks SJR, as my teacher always say, "do you want to be able to fight now, or wait till you are old and grey?"

[sanjuro_ronin]

WC is probably the most MARKETED of all TCMA outside of Taiji.
No reason to get on John about it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yep. Thanks SJR, as my teacher always say, "do you want to be able to fight now, or wait till you are old and grey?"

I have only seen Kulo on youtube and what I have seen and read from Robert Chu.
I think it is WC going/gone in the right direction IMHO.
I hope that it has the "room" for the various practitioners/teachers to also add stuff of their won that they find effective?

[imperialtaichi]

I have only seen Kulo on youtube and what I have seen and read from Robert Chu.
I think it is WC going/gone in the right direction IMHO.
I hope that it has the "room" for the various practitioners/teachers to also add stuff of their won that they find effective?

Yes, any system that is principle/strategy based, can be adapted.

It will be very boring if everyone fights exactly the same way in every boxing match.

Even between TST and WSL, both from Ip Man, ended up with very different personal favour but with the same core.

I've been sharing with a Shaolin Sifu a lot lately. Really beautiful kicker. He used to do competitive fighting and training students for fights. Now when I play with him his hands are becoming more "Kulo-ish" and I'm picking up his kicking habits, but at the same time we both haven't deviated from our core.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, any system that is principle/strategy based, can be adapted.

It will be very boring if everyone fights exactly the same way in every boxing match.

Even between TST and WSL, both from Ip Man, ended up with very different personal favour but with the same core.

I've been sharing with a Shaolin Sifu a lot lately. Really beautiful kicker. He used to do competitive fighting and training students for fights. Now when I play with him his hands are becoming more "Kulo-ish" and I'm picking up his kicking habits, but at the same time we both haven't deviated from our core.

Yep, I like the way that sounds.

[Jim Roselando]

Some food for thought:

If Master Leung Jan felt that Wong Wah Sam and the other Gulao pupils were not properly schooled in Wing Chun Boxing then why wouldn't he have said: Guys, i'm a little old now. When I am no longer able to train you I would recommend that you seek out my Foshan senior students for more training etc...

The fact is he did not tell them you should go train with Chan Wah or others. Why? He gave them a complete system of training in a new platform and the Gulao people were very skilled at it but also very private which led to a lot of people not understanding the what/why/how/etc of the art! Essentially, LJ refined the SLT/CK/BJ into one core mini set with 12 sections. Each containing a certain amount of training info. needed to develop the essence of the classical WCK platforms.

Also, thanks to the core training platform we do say it hits/develops the body at a much faster rate than the older platforms so yes we consider it to be a faster development process towards WC cultivation and application but not really a quick fix IMO. If you want a quick fix then you would just practice the first four hands, footwork, choc sao, chi sao, san sao and sparring...


Peace,