Sansik/Sansau v.s. Ip Man The Three Forms

[couch]

Yep, I like the way that sounds.

I like the sound of it, too. I think you wrote recently something to the effect that we are the sum of our experiences.

In my line of work (acupunk/Chinese medicine), I see elitist BS all the time, too. There are so many different ways to practice acupuncture (TCM, Tung, Tan, Japanese Palpatory, Five Element, Korean Koryo Therapy, etc) and a lot of folks spout off crap about other styles. A lot of chest beating that reminds me of Wing Chun.

However, I am the sum of my experiences. So the analogy holds true. If I learn a little bit about another style of acupuncture, it doesn't mean I'm not practicing acupuncture anymore - it just means that I have more options. More options to heal for different situations.

Same with Chun, no?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1173644]Promised not to hijack Hendrik's thread, so let's start anew.

((You titled it:Sansik/Sansau v.s. Ip Man The Three Forms. I dont care to deal with "versus"
and have no problem with people doing kulo.

FWIW-For some folks doinga full Ip Man curriculum- there is not just the forms, weapons and chi sao-
there is san sik as well and practicing san sik drills with others.

[GlennR]

Yep, I am the only person in our line outside China promoting it. Am I not allowed to spread it in this free world? Or should I simply let it die?

Spencer, you used to be cool, why are you getting so angry at everyone lately?

Gee John... you thought Spencer was cool at some stage?????

[LoneTiger108]

Yep, I am the only person in our line outside China promoting it. Am I not allowed to spread it in this free world? Or should I simply let it die?

I can't recall saying anything of the sort? It was you who said you're not into the marketing thing but that's neither here or there today!

Spencer, you used to be cool, why are you getting so angry at everyone lately?

I am sorry that you take my posts that way because that is not my intention. I aint angry with you John and I have no interest in being cool

It is clear from your rallying support that people simply do not see what I see, and what I see is someone proud of their heritage who has every right to promote themselves, but for some reason can not take any criticism whatsoever.

I like to think we are very similar. There is nobody promoting my Sigung on these boards anymore because they all had enough of the bickering and politics. I chose to participate because our family is pretty small in comparison to others yet we are one of the eldest roots of Wing Chun in Europe (if not the eldest!) I can count the 'active' authorised Sifus of our lineage on one hand.

FWIW-For some folks doinga full Ip Man curriculum- there is not just the forms, weapons and chi sao-there is san sik as well and practicing san sik drills with others.

Well Joy, this was also part of what I was 'trying' to say yesterday. As a living example, my kung fu uncle has more than 20 sub-sets in addition to the standard 3 hand forms. And for me, these are not termed as being 'kulo' WCK although they have many of their characteristics. He did coin the term Pien San Wing Chun though!

I am sorry if anyone here thinks I am being dismissive of Kulo WCK because I am one who would love to learn that stuff, I put my 'anger' down to me simply having a bad day at work yesterday so I may have been a little too sharp for some to handle...

[imperialtaichi]

It is clear from your rallying support that people simply do not see what I see, and what I see is someone proud of their heritage who has every right to promote themselves, but for some reason can not take any criticism whatsoever.
....

I am sorry if anyone here thinks I am being dismissive of Kulo WCK because I am one who would love to learn that stuff, I put my 'anger' down to me simply having a bad day at work yesterday so I may have been a little too sharp for some to handle...

Spencer, no one is rallying support against you. And I have always maintained (quote off Phil Redmond) "Wing Chun is one big family." And I take criticism like everyone else on this forum, "like water off a ducks back."

If you had a bad day at work, take a deep breath.

[Frost]

It is clear from your rallying support that people simply do not see what I see, and what I see is someone proud of their heritage who has every right to promote themselves, but for some reason can not take any criticism whatsoever...

Lol pot meet kettle

[LoneTiger108]

Lol pot meet kettle

Hmmm maybe but I'm sure I have been on the receiving end of more jokes and snide comments than actual 'constructive' criticism! I take that very well indeed when it's presented in a comprehensible manner.

I also deal with this everyday in my work too so reel your neck in dude!

Otherwise it's just insult flinging all round

[LoneTiger108]

If you had a bad day at work, take a deep breath.

Maybe you too could see your part in this misunderstanding too John and take a piece of your own advice?

[Frost]

Hmmm maybe but I'm sure I have been on the receiving end of more jokes and snide comments than actual 'constructive' criticism! I take that very well indeed when it's presented in a comprehensible manner.

I also deal with this everyday in my work too so reel your neck in dude!

Otherwise it's just insult flinging all round

come off it you have a go at john for not showing clips in action, when he actually has, and all you can post is compliant drills and demos, you come on hinting at special and secret lineages and having the old real wing chun, then cant see wy people jump all over you

really you cant see this?

[Hendrik]

By the definition of traditional Chinese martial art, form or kung or engine training is the body of the art or tee 體and San Sik or sau Sao is the application of the art or yong 用。in the true Chinese way, in order to have a complete system, both the body tee and the application Yong needs to be exist in the same time .

An art with tee only has not much used because it cannot be applied . An art with Yong only is weak because it has no support.

That is what happen according to authentic Chinese martial art system.


From these above one can clearly see where one stand.

The present day evolution of WCK type ,
where the focus is 100 percent fighting or application without addressing the Kung or body of the art is an incomplete art based on the Chinese tradition.

The present day evolution of WCK type,
Where the Kung or body of the art or the engine is such as Chen taiji is not WCK but Chen taiji with WCK type of application.


The present day evolution of WCK type,

Where the body of the art and the application of the art is a mix with other art but wing Chun body and applications as dominant is a new WCK spin off evolution.

that is how an art is define if one want to go by book of authentic Chinese traditional classification.


As a conclusion, it doesn't matter what the individual claim one is making. All are subject to the above judgement when it comes to tcma.

[LoneTiger108]

come off it you have a go at john for not showing clips in action, when he actually has, and all you can post is compliant drills and demos, you come on hinting at special and secret lineages and having the old real wing chun, then cant see wy people jump all over you

really you cant see this?

Yes I see why people like you may want to jump all over evrything I post!

Seriously I think you have misread our conversation!

And I get the feeling you have some sort of issue with people sharing their own experiences because where have I hinted anything like what you mention in this thread?

Are you saying that because I 'believe' that Leung Jans original Sansik was a 12 hand set instead of 22 I am implying that I have that knowledge?? Because if so, you couldn't be more wrong.

[LoneTiger108]

By the definition of traditional Chinese martial art, form or kung or engine training is the body of the art or tee 體and San Sik or sau Sao is the application of the art or yong 用。in the true Chinese way, in order to have a complete system, both the body tee and the application Yong needs to be exist in the same time.

From my experience there are even more things for your Martial Arts to be considered as Traditionally Chinese in origin, but these two keys are very very important

[imperialtaichi]

By the definition of traditional Chinese martial art, form or kung or engine training is the body of the art or tee 體and San Sik or sau Sao is the application of the art or yong 用。in the true Chinese way, in order to have a complete system, both the body tee and the application Yong needs to be exist in the same time .

Hendrik,

This is a misconception.

The Sansik/Sansau is NOT just applications. It is called "San" because it is not organised in strict forms. Different parts were designed for different purposes in terms of strategy, development of power, and conditioning of certain parts of the body. In fact, I look at them as "exercises to develop mind and body" more than fighting applications.

As I always say, predefined techniques fails in real fight. The more complex/intricate it is, the worse it fails. You rarely rarely see beautiful "Jet Li look-alike" classic Kung Fu moves applicable in competitions or real fights for this very reason.

What carries you through a fight is Heart, physical attribute, habit, strategy, and simple effective techniques. A good martial art must train all these elements.

[imperialtaichi]

What carries you through a fight is Heart, physical attribute, habit, strategy, and simple effective techniques. A good martial art must train all these elements.

"Heart" is the hardest to train. Some says you are either born with it or not.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

This is a misconception.

The Sansik/Sansau is NOT just applications. It is called "San" because it is not organised in strict forms. Different parts were designed for different purposes in terms of strategy, development of power, and conditioning of certain parts of the body. In fact, I look at them as "exercises to develop mind and body" more than fighting applications.

As I always say, predefined techniques fails in real fight. The more complex/intricate it is, the worse it fails. You rarely rarely see beautiful "Jet Li look-alike" classic Kung Fu moves applicable in competitions or real fights for this very reason.

What carries you through a fight is Heart, physical attribute, habit, strategy, and simple effective techniques. A good martial art must train all these elements.

IMHO,
Your view is a modern or western one.

By ancient Chinese view,
Disregard of what San sau or San Sik Being define today, it never develop neigong.
Thus, as in YKS. Where there are the forms Or the body and san Sik the application. That is classical holistic WCK.