Combat vs. Health

[SPJ]

Let's see if we only care about "health", what will our training look like? We no longer need to train:

- Fajin (punch on your opponent is bad for his health),
- throws (throw your opponent on the ground is bad for his health),
- lock (put pressure on your opponent's joint is bad his health),
- stretch (high kick is bad for your hip joint),
- hold fist (palm should be good enough),
- sticky (stick on what?),
- follow (follow whom?),
- yield (yield on what?),
- borrow force (no opponent, no force to borrow),
- ...

If the word "opponent" no longer exist, what do we have left in TCMA?

Yes. Another big topic

no matter how careful we are such as using pads and mittens etc

injury does occur for us and our practice or sparring partners

--

saftey first saftey in between and safety last

[Matthew]

Let's see if we only care about "health", what will our training look like?

Chen Taiji for health
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KxjA8fOJZ0

vs.

Chen Taiji for combat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KxjA8fOJZ0

Maybe it is a false dichotomy which the original post has- just some illusion perhaps

[xinyidizi]

Doing qigong and meditation is good for health but IMO the fighting and sparring part is necessary for bringing you to a higher level even in health. Only after you start to train the martial aspect you will know how you can really relax your tenseness and how you can move your body naturally the most efficient way. I personally train for both but I try to focus more on the health aspect as I am not a professional fighter and certainly don't want severe injuries in my life because sometimes it gets out of control like yesterday when one of my shixiongs (who used to do sanda professionally) broke part of my tooth.

[ginosifu]

Combat is for others. Health is for yourself. Also trying to argue whether sparring (you may get hit on your head) or heavy bag training (you may hurt your fist) will be good for healh can be endless debating. It's better to separate both in the same discussion. What's your opinion on this?

YouKnowWho:

Combat VS Health is a double edged sword.

Combat training, self defense, fighting skills etc.. is the skill to be able to defend yourself from bandits, muggers, attackers etc... also known as: Skills to preserve your life.

Health training is the skill of keeping your mind and body healthy, staying fit and in good shape etc.. also known as: Skills to preserve your life.

What is the difference between dying at age 40 from a mugger or dying at age 40 from a heart attack?

Both skills preserve your life. Both should be trained whether done together or seperate.

ginosifu

[mawali]

Chen family at that time is also as you call "soft" Modern chen was made to appeal to youth

So yang and chen both are soft- yang is uninterrupted continuous flow soft- is that what you mean?

Modern Yang style guys are good promoters nowadays it's for money and giving away certificates more than traditional martial arts.. but I don't see that being that way in Ban Hou or Cheng Fus time

Yang is 'soft" always per the training regimen while Chen shi taijiquan is 'soft and 'hard'. The modern impetus on sport is good but the martial aspects is usually downplayed or available if you have enough 'heart' to be beat up.

[RWilson]

To cultivate Kung Fu within one self, time is given to all aspects of the body and mind.
If you can break an arm, a full understanding would include how to mend it.

Quality of life when in the autumn years is a good thing and within martial arts there are regimens that promote this.

to be a Kung Fu practitioner, it is necessary to develop the full scope throughout your lifetime. Otherwise, it is imbalance to practice only how to fight. That is only one limb of Kung Fu.

It's the limb that draws people in, but it is the other stuff that keeps them in and keeps them supple and alert into their old age.

There is a time for everything. A young man cannot be an old man and cannot have the experiences or needs of an old man. the same is true the other way round, the old man doesn't have the power and strength of the young man, and so must use what power and strength he does have in a more efficient and refined way. The youth can charge and try again, the old man must be correct and for him, he has had the time to practice to create that correctness.

Both are required of the martial artist who wants Kung Fu.

It is not possible to become good at both. The people I have seen who talk about learning health and martial arts side by side are great at the healing side. But their definition of "martial art" does not involve learning how to fight. It involves the forms of the system, weapons training for "strength" which is considerered better than lifting weights. Why? I have no idea. "Techniques" derived from form movements because of the belief that forms are a living textbook, two person drills, push hands.....but no sparring. Again, this has been my experience. They are great at massage/acupuncture/talking about training in the different seasons but they are not fighters. The other issue I have with this is they do not come out and say so. You study with them for years before you realize they do not engage in resistance training of any kind beyond basic push hands but talk about "self defense".

[bawang]

You study with them for years before you realize they do not engage in resistance training of any kind beyond basic push hands but talk about "self defense".

thats because they are mentally disturbed. american kung fu advertises power over another person.


chinese martial arts has died out again and becoming obscure around the world. now its back to the way things used to be before bruce lee. theres no need to argue for past mistakes. we can start over again with a clean slate.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yup


nope


I don't think taiji is really the best way to get you "healthy"; especially considering that the whole impetus behind its emergence as a "soft" art was due to the Yang family wanting to keep its rice bowl filled - these guys weren't doctors, qigong masters, not much of anything really, except good self-promoters, who retrofitted Chen fist so that the urban weekend-warrior nobility could get their freak on w/out breaking a sweat;

there are much better and more efficient ways to train all of the attributes that taiji supposedly grants; the catch is that it's been pushed in China as being a cultural treasure, and over here it's "foreign ginger"; one main advantage is that it's social; it also stimulates parasympathetics big time, so people get a nice 'mellow buzz" out of it; which is why u c the heath effects of lowering BP and the like; so it's a general sympathetic detonifyer; but it won't do much for muscles strength, flexibility or balance unless u r clinically very weak, stiff or unstable to begin with - them of course u will c an effect;

it's slow weight shifting with a lot of unilateral weight bearing - that can b easily reproduced lots of different ways;

so it's ok, but people need to get way less carried away by it...

I meant that the vast majority of people are attracted to Taiji because, to them, it is first and foremost ( and to some ONLY) a form of "exercise".
People don't think Taiji and think - fighting.

[xinyidizi]

It involves the forms of the system, weapons training for "strength" which is considerered better than lifting weights. Why? I have no idea.

It's all about efficiency because this way you will train many muscles together which is more time saving and also it will be more focused on the muscles that you are actually going to use more in your martial arts system. In addition you will learn synchronizing and using them together at the same time. However lifting weights also has its own merits as it can focus on certain muscles but I believe it should just take a small part in training in case we train with weapons.

It is not possible to become good at both.

I don't see why. I agree that nowadays most TCMA teachers don't really teach the students how to fight but people who do are also not that hard to find. I know several martial artists in Beijing, Henan, Jiangsu and even a few in Shanghai who do them both. I know or have heard of people from mobs in a small town who have very good backgrounds in traditional martial arts and one of them actually talked to me about the importance of qigong.

[pazman]

The combat vs health debate conceals a huge irony: The people training for combat and utilizing real martial arts training are often far healthier than those who train for "health", mentally as well as physically.

[SPJ]

The idea of combat

is honing on a set of skill and solve your fighting problems.

Health is a whole big different pursuit.

Some are overlapping.

Some are not.

For example, a keen killing or destroying instinct.

mmmm. It may not be healthy.

A sniper trigger finger. It may not be healthy for your finger. It is bigger and faster and with callus or arthritis over time.

etc etc

[Hendrik]

Combat is for others. Health is for yourself. The training can be "opposite". In XingYi 5 elements training, if you train:

- combat, you will exhale when you punch, and your body chase your hand.
- health, you will inhale when you punch, and your body push your hand.

Also trying to argue whether sparring (you may get hit on your head) or heavy bag training (you may hurt your fist) will be good for healh can be endless debating. It's better to separate both in the same discussion. What's your opinion on this?

This is totally misleading.

John,

You love to fantasy and mislead people. Hahaha.

[YouKnowWho]

This is totally misleading.

John,

You love to fantasy and mislead people. Hahaha.

Which part is fantasy? Which part is misleading?

[Hendrik]

Which part is fantasy? Which part is misleading?

Every thing in that post.

[YouKnowWho]

Every thing in that post.

This was what I have said.

if you train:

- combat, you will exhale when you punch, and your body chase your hand.
- health, you will inhale when you punch, and your body push your hand.

OK, I may use the wrong words here. Let me correct this as:

if you train:

- combat, you punch out fast, concentrate on exhale when you punch, and your body chase your hand.
- health, you punch out slow, concentrate on inhale when you pull your punch back, and your body push your hand.

Since you read Chinese, you can help me to verify whether my translation is correct or not.

The XingYi system train inhale instead of exhale. In training, you punch out slow with slow exhale. When you pull your punch back, you inhale quickly. It's light out heavy in, light exhile deep inhale, long exhale short inhale.

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/8059/inhale.jpg

Teacher Tang said,"The XingYi training and combat are different. In training, you use body to push shoulder, shoulder to push elbow, elbow to push hand, It's like water flow from your shoulder to your hand. In combat, you throw your hand out like a whip. You then use elbow to chase hand, shoulder to chase elbow, body to chase shoulder."

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8...ychasehand.jpg