Tibetan White Crane

[jdhowland]

As per a suggestion by TenTigers let's talk about the other White Crane: the "lama fist" style of Ng Siu Jung (and his brother, Siu Chan) in all its various permutations. There have been some experienced and knowledgable posters here in recent years. Let's hope we can draw them in.

[Minghequan]

Okay, perhaps you could get the ball rolling by telling us about the beginnings of Tibetan White Crane!

Does it owe any of it's beginnings to the Fuzhou variety?

Was it's origins strictly in the realm of Fighting Arts?

[TenTigers]

I noticed that from the small exposure I had in TWC, there were some short hand techniques similar to Fukien/Hakka/Siu-Lum crane. Bong-sao, gaun-sau, and also the hooking and crane's beak strike-nearly identical to Siu Lum Hung Kuen.
I understand that there was some trading in the system, and some TWC systems have a variation of the five animal fist from Siu-Lum Hung Kuen. (Deng family Hop-Ga also uses the Kiu-sao single finger hand)
What can you add to this?

[sanjuro_ronin]

How many types of TWC is there and how does Lama Pai / LionsRoar fit into it?

[TenTigers]

Si Ji Hao branched into three-Lama P'ai, Hop-Ga, and Bak Hok P'ai. Variations exist within the styles,and many share the same sets.
It would be very cool to see a side by side comparison. There is a youtube vid floating about with Lama P'ai Sifu Michael Parella exchanging information with Hop-Ga Sifu David Rogers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've seen some TWC that is "tyical" long range stuff ( kicks with both arms out for balance, lots of "CLF" type long looping strikes, etc) BUT have also seen LR/LP stuff that was as inclose as SPM.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Si Ji Hao branched into three-Lama P'ai, Hop-Ga, and Bak Hok P'ai. Variations exist within the styles,and many share the same sets.
It would be very cool to see a side by side comparison. There is a youtube vid floating about with Lama P'ai Sifu Michael Parella exchanging information with Hop-Ga Sifu David Rogers.

Mike's stuff on youtube is great.
Big loss when he stopped posting here...

[jdhowland]

How many types of TWC is there and how does Lama Pai / LionsRoar fit into it?

One way to look at it is that there are versions that were taught to practitioners of other systems, and versions that used only lama style methods. This gives us at least a few major branches and lots of smaller offshoots.

Hong Kong Pak Hok Athletic Association style. These folks had the impossible task of trying to standardize and regulate the style while also trying to preserve it by modifying it.

Chan Hak Fu style. Reportedly different--his own style with a pared down syllabus.

Luk Chee Fu branch. His son, Luk Chung Mau (Michael Lok) continues to teach. I think there were schools influenced by them in Malaysia, Britain and the Philippines. Should be very close to Ngai Yoh Tong and the P.H.A.A. style.

Kwong Bun Fu style. He was one of the senior representatives of Pak Hok when he died a few years back. Left students in Asia and Canada. Some of them claim he should have been the gate keeper of the style but many in Hong Kong disagreed.

Au Wing Nin style. Learned lama style from at least four different teachers. Apparently became the senior disciple of Ng Siu Jung. Au went along with the name change to White Crane but seems to have taught the Lama system more or less as he learned it, without the tendency for expansion that happened in later decades.

Please add others to this list as you think of them.

In regards to the second part of sanjuro_ronin's question: In the past, some have suggested that White Crane resulted from a specialization in one aspect of the Lion Roar curriculum and that systems using the names Lion's Roar or Lama Paai must reflect older versions of the tradition. I don't see it this way at all.

If you look at the origins of systems now calling themselves Lion's Roar or Lama Pai you find that they stem from blends of White Crane and Hap Ga as much as anything else. White Crane and Hop Ga were established before most Lama Pai schools. This reflects political changes in China that allowed the older names to be used again. They were no longer so politically incorrect, and, as Gru Bianca mentioned in a previous post, allowed for a name brand recognition that set them apart from other Chinese arts.

[taichi4eva]

I have seen videos from the Hong Kong Pak Hok Association, and in my opinion, there is really not much difference between forms. The techniques are just strewn in a different order.

Which makes me believe that sets in Pak Hok or Lama is a very recent invention...

[Gru Bianca]

One way to look at it is that there are versions that were taught to practitioners of other systems, and versions that used only lama style methods. This gives us at least a few major branches and lots of smaller offshoots.

Hong Kong Pak Hok Athletic Association style. These folks had the impossible task of trying to standardize and regulate the style while also trying to preserve it by modifying it.

Chan Hak Fu style. Reportedly different--his own style with a pared down syllabus.

Luk Chee Fu branch. His son, Luk Chung Mau (Michael Lok) continues to teach. I think there were schools influenced by them in Malaysia, Britain and the Philippines. Should be very close to Ngai Yoh Tong and the P.H.A.A. style.

Kwong Bun Fu style. He was one of the senior representatives of Pak Hok when he died a few years back. Left students in Asia and Canada. Some of them claim he should have been the gate keeper of the style but many in Hong Kong disagreed.

Au Wing Nin style. Learned lama style from at least four different teachers. Apparently became the senior disciple of Ng Siu Jung. Au went along with the name change to White Crane but seems to have taught the Lama system more or less as he learned it, without the tendency for expansion that happened in later decades.

Please add others to this list as you think of them.

In regards to the second part of sanuro_ronin's question: In the past, some have suggested that White Crane resulted from a specialization in one aspect of the Lion Roar curriculum and that systems using the names Lion's Roar or Lama Paai must reflect older versions of the tradition. I don't see it this way at all.

If you look at the origins of systems now calling themselves Lion's Roar or Lama Pai you find that they stem from blends of White Crane and Hap Ga as much as anything else. White Crane and Hop Ga were established before most Lama Pai schools. This reflects political changes in China that allowed the older names to be used again. They were no longer so politically incorrect, and, as Gru Bianca mentioned in a previous post, allowed for a name brand recognition that set them apart from other Chinese arts.

John,

You summed it up pretty well I would say; only an addition in regard to Au Wing Nam, you are right in what you say (or at least so I have heard too) but he actually did not only study Lama prior to Pak Hok he actually studied Pak Hok with Ng Siu Chang more than he studied with Ng Siu Chun. But he showed great respect non the less to Ng Siu Chun

[Gru Bianca]

I noticed that from the small exposure I had in TWC, there were some short hand techniques similar to Fukien/Hakka/Siu-Lum crane. Bong-sao, gaun-sau, and also the hooking and crane's beak strike-nearly identical to Siu Lum Hung Kuen.
I understand that there was some trading in the system, and some TWC systems have a variation of the five animal fist from Siu-Lum Hung Kuen. (Deng family Hop-Ga also uses the Kiu-sao single finger hand)
What can you add to this?

Perhaps you are referring to the Siu Ng Yim kune part of it? Never seen performed the Da Ng Yim Kune but I've heard they are two different beasts altogether.

[taichi4eva]

I have only started training in Tibetan White Crane. Due to my prior experience with other kung fu styles, my teacher allowed me to follow along while he performed his version of Siu Ng Ying. From the versions I have seen on Youtube (there is a version done in Singapore that is floating around), my teacher's version is much longer and consists of long range arm movements, kiu sau, as well as animal movements.

[3v1lj03]

I study TWC my sifu is from the Nig-Siu-Chung - Ngai-Yah-Tong linage. in fact I have never seen any forms posted on youtube or elsewhere that are the same as ours. I have seen techniques that are similar to ours and all our history and philosophy are consistent with the vast majority or Pok Hok Pai /Lama Pi/ Hap Ga. While there are some similar movements in TWC to the Fujian type there is no common history or linage. Sometimes what works works for all humans and those who seek find similar answers to common questions. I will be happy to attempt to answer questions concerning TWC to the best of my ability.

[illusionfist]

(Deng family Hop-Ga also uses the Kiu-sao single finger hand)
What can you add to this?

There are some who think that the single finger bridge hand originated from Lama/Haap Ga, at least as far as Hung Kyun is concerned.

[TenTigers]

There are some who think that the single finger bridge hand originated from Lama/Haap Ga, at least as far as Hung Kyun is concerned.

yes, I've heard this as well.
Here's the mystery; Some say that the Lamists were not involved in Fan Ching Fuk Ming, but obviously Wong Yun-Lum was. Perhaps the info to the contrary came more from bad Kung-Fu movies...