Tibetan White Crane

[jdhowland]

Pigua, tong bei, cha chuan seem to have some similarities.

True. Doesn't tong bei refer to power through the back? That's also a principle of White Crane training.

[Gru Bianca]

Pigua, tong bei, cha chuan seem to have some similarities.

Not to be picky nor to give the impression to not take into account other people's contribution, but for my personal observation (as such questionable I admit) I find it to be a bit of a stretch the comparison with Tong Bei or Cha Quan; I confess I find Pigua perhaps the closest along side with a version of Hong Quan which video was once posted by Bawang not else for the double Tsinchoy (both arms stretched out in the opposite direction)

Ironically what I found to be closer to our tradition is the way some Kalahary Payatu move

[Gru Bianca]

I agree. I don't know how well he would have been received by other buddhist monks in the south. I have read that maht jung/ mi zong budhism largely died out in China centuries ago even though it survived in Korea and Japan. If he was a fighting monk he need not have been a scholar or lama guru so I am doubtful about some of the claims that he became an abbot, but he may well have been a revered member of monastic communities. Some warrior monks were known to retire from their hard and dangerous lives to become scholarly or meditative Lamas


.

Good point, however as I mentioned yesterday, Mizong Buddhism is (and has always been alive) in Beijing and the west part of Sichuan and the Qinghai region, not to forget Inner and Outer Mongolia.
That said I strongly believe you are spot on with doubting of Sing Long ever being an abbot at some temple; when I went (not long ago) to visit the Qing Yun monastery to search info on our past history I did not find any mention of him in any chart of the Temple's genealogy. The only mention I have found of a Sheng Long (written 升龙) is in a book I bought at the temple. The part mentioning this Sheng Long was saying he was from Guangdong province and a student of the Shaolin tradition...not exactly a Lama

[bawang]

i dont have problem with the legend. i have problem with your motive. wong yanlim was number 1 fighter in guangdong but you guys always downplay him and emphasize the exotic kung fu lama.
hap kuen is famous in guangdong for being gangster kung fu. but you guys always advertise it to americans as mystical lama fu.

caravan run to qinghai was the most dangerous route in china. in other parts you can talk your way out or pay a road fee. sometimes your sihing is just playing the bandit to scare the merchants. in qinghai a fourth of the caravan guard dies each trip.
qinghai is where mongols swear an oath to not return to their tribe until they shed blood.

if wong yanlim really worked there then he is a bona fide badass of badasses. why the lama fetish? did this lama fetish start with that shaolin vs lama movie?

[Gru Bianca]

i dont have problem with the legend. i have problem with your motive. wong yanlim was number 1 fighter in guangdong but you guys always downplay him and emphasize the exotic kung fu lama.
hap kuen is famous in guangdong for being gangster kung fu. but you guys always advertise it to americans as mystical lama fu.

caravan run to qinghai was the most dangerous route in china. in other parts you can talk your way out or pay a road fee. sometimes your sihing is just playing the bandit to scare the merchants. in qinghai a fourth of the caravan guard dies each trip.
qinghai is where mongols swear an oath to not return to their tribe until they shed blood.

if wong yanlim really worked there then he is a bona fide badass of badasses. why the lama fetish? did this lama fetish start with that shaolin vs lama movie?

ahahahah.... interesting reading....however I need to clarify myself; I do not really care about the "Lama" thing, it's just interesting trying to understand more about the origin, that's all, not that the "Lama" thing gives to the style any additional feature so to speak...

Secondly,.. I do not really refer to Huang Ying Lin that much as in our tradition our reference person is Wang Lin Kai which perhaps judging by his picture may have not been as bad ass as his Kungfu brother Huang Ying lin but...who cares really

[Faruq]

i dont have problem with the legend. i have problem with your motive. wong yanlim was number 1 fighter in guangdong but you guys always downplay him and emphasize the exotic kung fu lama.

I just googled Huang Ying Lin and nothing came up. Anybody got any bio links for him? And I though CLC was #1.

[jdhowland]

I just googled Huang Ying Lin and nothing came up. Anybody got any bio links for him? And I though CLC was #1.

Try "Hop Gar," "Wong Yan Lum," Wohng Yen Lam, Yan Lin,..." No standard roman orthography for Cantonese.

[Faruq]

Try "Hop Gar," "Wong Yan Lum," Wohng Yen Lam, Yan Lin,..." No standard roman orthography for Cantonese.

Thanks, JD. Hey, but if he's Hop Gar then isn't Bawang contradicting himself in saying that Wong Yan Lum was the number 1 fighter in Canton, but everybody overlooks him for the mystical Lama kung fu? Now I'm really confused, lol.

[jdhowland]

Thanks, JD. Hey, but if he's Hop Gar then isn't Bawang contradicting himself in saying that Wong Yan Lum was the number 1 fighter in Canton, but everybody overlooks him for the mystical Lama kung fu? Now I'm really confused, lol.

Most famous for his time, possibly. Hahp was a nickname meaning hero or patriot. One of his students called his art Hap Gar but there is no proof that Wong ever used the term. Before that it was supposedly called by various names including Lion's Roar and Lama boxing.

We will never come up with a definitive answer as to the origins of "Tibetan White Crane" but the trick is to gather enough information to make an educated guess as to whether the system originated among Tibetans in what is now northern China or was begun by a bunch of triad gangsters in the south about 120 years ago and hence of unknown but still northern origin.

Or ignore the previous generations and just say that this white crane school originated with Ng Siu Jung 100 years ago. Still, Wong Yen Lum was influential in all branches of "Lama fist" and is revered for his accomplishments in all branches. White Crane teachers admit that WYL was senior to and helped to train their founder's teacher. But since they see their branch as beginning with WYL's kung fu brother Wong Lum Hoi they don't add WYL to the lineage.

Complicated enough?

[Gru Bianca]

Most famous for his time, possibly. Hahp was a nickname meaning hero or patriot. One of his students called his art Hap Gar but there is no proof that Wong ever used the term. Before that it was supposedly called by various names including Lion's Roar and Lama boxing.

We will never come up with a definitive answer as to the origins of "Tibetan White Crane" but the trick is to gather enough information to make an educated guess as to whether the system originated among Tibetans in what is now northern China or was begun by a bunch of triad gangsters in the south about 120 years ago and hence of unknown but still northern origin.

Or ignore the previous generations and just say that this white crane school originated with Ng Siu Jung 100 years ago. Still, Wong Yen Lum was influential in all branches of "Lama fist" and is revered for his accomplishments in all branches. White Crane teachers admit that WYL was senior to and helped to train their founder's teacher. But since they see their branch as beginning with WYL's kung fu brother Wong Lum Hoi they don't add WYL to the lineage.

Complicated enough?

you are always a pleasure to read John, I'd like to add, if I may, one thing that more often then not is overlooked at; Great emphases is placed in Wang Lam Hoy (in the TWC side of the family) but I think more recognition should be given to Chu Chi Yao 朱子烧 as well as he was also an important puzzle peace in the formation of the Ng brothers...(Ng Siu Chung and Ng Siu Chang and their sister) and another direct student of Sing Long

[jdhowland]

...I'd like to add, if I may, one thing that more often then not is overlooked at; Great emphases is placed in Wang Lam Hoy (in the TWC side of the family) but I think more recognition should be given to Chu Chi Yao 朱子烧 as well as he was also an important puzzle peace in the formation of the Ng brothers...(Ng Siu Chung and Ng Siu Chang and their sister) and another direct student of Sing Long

Very interesting. I would like to learn more about Chu. Was he related to the Ng's by marriage, perhaps?

Some white crane folks even say that Chu may have been senior to Wong Yan Lum. It would be interesting to know if he has any surviving family.

[Gru Bianca]

Very interesting. I would like to learn more about Chu. Was he related to the Ng's by marriage, perhaps?

Some white crane folks even say that Chu may have been senior to Wong Yan Lum. It would be interesting to know if he has any surviving family.

I do not think he was family related with the Ng as I have never heard such a hypothesis in the past, and I have also not heard of the "voice" wanting him to be senior to Wong Yan Lam.

To find out whether he had surviving family it is not really impossible (as it is not impossible to know for Wong Yan Lam and Wang Lam Hoy), Chinese are really great for these kind of things and some tools of research do exist (家谱) but it is a very time and energy demanding task.

[htowndragon]

Does anyone know what lineage of White Crane Ruhu Zhu is? I read his website and saw his lineage but I have never heard those names before. I'm concluding it's some offshoot line of Bak Hok Pai. Any input?

[madhusudan]

I'm really excited. I just got my hands on a book, published in Hong Kong, entitled Lama Pai Quan Ji written by Yinseng. Iti Chinese, so it will be quite a little project to translate its 77 pages. I was told the first two chapters are on the formation and current history of the style. Next are the 8 punches, followed by mok yee pai both with illustrations and text. Finally there is what appears to be a form of 88 movements.

Anyone interested in helping get this text translated? Anyone own this book and have a translation?

[jdhowland]

Anyone interested in helping get this text translated? Anyone own this book and have a translation?

I have a copy but never tried to translate anything but the names of techniques. My reading comprehension is still poor.