Alan Orr Wing Chun Questions 6 -Turning in Chi Sao

[Alan Orr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fdiO9WudLM&feature=plcp

I just loaded up -

Alan Orr Wing Chun Questions 6 -Turning in Chi Sao

This clips shows some of the different Principles in turning in the Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun system.

Bridging the understanding of Chi Sao (being a drill - live or not) to sparring / fighting application.

[WC1277]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fdiO9WudLM&feature=plcp

I just loaded up -

Alan Orr Wing Chun Questions 6 -Turning in Chi Sao

This clips shows some of the different Principles in turning in the Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun system.

Bridging the understanding of Chi Sao (being a drill - live or not) to sparring / fighting application.

I agree with that "basic" concept in regards to turning. We do the same. Your eyes may have deceived you...

[Jeff_H]

Turning with a floating base does not work against pressure. I take their center gravity and force them to retreat or collapse every time they shift away from head to head facing. Shifting to side and turing relies on speed and distraction too much.

[Alan Orr]

Turning with a floating base does not work against pressure. I take their center gravity and force them to retreat or collapse every time they shift away from head to head facing. Shifting to side and turing relies on speed and distraction too much.

Yes I agree with that.

[Jeff_H]

If you agree well that is what I saw in video. Is the video a example of what not to do?

[wingchunIan]

[QUOTE=Jeff_H;1175084]Turning with a floating base does not work against pressure. QUOTE]

Doesn't it also require the ability to levitate? I can't speak for other lineages but when I turn (which just for info is a bit different to the way Alan turns in his clip) my body mass stays rooted.
As far as being uprooted because you've turned, only possible if you can change direction more quickly otherwise your line of force is pressing against something that isn't there anymore.
Are you saying that you don't turn in your lineage? or that you have a different way of doing things?

[Hendrik]

Turning with a floating base does not work against pressure. I take their center gravity and force them to retreat or collapse every time they shift away from head to head facing. Shifting to side and turing relies on speed and distraction too much.

IMHO,

It has to do with de linking before turn , and not as much as float or root based.

Root based with no de link is even worse the floating based, for the rooting is what cause one to get bounce away via fajing uproot. The fajing guy who can uproot love rooting opponent who cannot delink.

[wingchunIan]

IMHO,

It has to do with de linking before turn , and not as much as float or root based.

Root based with no de link is even worse the floating based, for the rooting is what cause one to get bounce away via fajing uproot. The fajing guy who can uproot love rooting opponent who cannot delink.

Hendrik, with all due respect I'm glad to say that I have no idea what you are talking about!

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, with all due respect I'm glad to say that I have no idea what you are talking about!

No problem.

There is a discussion in Alan angling and pressure threat. About the six degree of freedom, angling shifting, linking delinking, loading releasing.

May be you want to check it out there.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...0&postcount=45

That back off doesn't mean back off all the way, just a slight off to unbonding the two momentums or pressure or structure. To create a gap for play.

[JPinAZ]

IMHO,

It has to do with de linking before turn , and not as much as float or root based.

Root based with no de link is even worse the floating based, for the rooting is what cause one to get bounce away via fajing uproot. The fajing guy who can uproot love rooting opponent who cannot delink.

This is all just talk and theory. Unless you practice and apply this with a real live, resisting partner, you have no idea what you are talking about. Since you say you don't spar, and since you have no students that can demonstrate this, I'm calling BS - you don't KNOW this to be true thru actual experience. Unless you can give us just ONE name of someone you train with that can verify you actually can pull ANYTHING off...

[Hendrik]

This is all just talk and theory.

Unless you practice and apply this with a real live, resisting partner, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Since you say you don't spar, and since you have no students that can demonstrate this, I'm calling BS - you don't KNOW this to be true thru actual experience.

Unless you can give us just ONE name of someone you train with that can verify you actually can pull ANYTHING off...

the above is an "ignore physical reality" talk.

usually given by those who doesnt aware of the physical reality. but thinking know it all.

physcal reality doesnt have to do with any one or any names , either one knows it make use of it. or one dont know it and control by it.

I really think people needs to get more intelligent these days instead of similar to joining a cult believing " Yes, mind over matter. the heck with law of physics."

when one doesnt even aware of these basic physical reality, that is really tell the level of one's martial art.

[Robinhood]

the above is an "ignore physical reality" talk.

usually given by those who doesnt aware of the physical reality. but thinking know it all.

physcal reality doesnt have to do with any one or any names , either one knows it make use of it. or one dont know it and control by it.

I really think people needs to get more intelligent these days instead of similar to joining a cult believing " Yes, mind over matter. the heck with law of physics."

when one doesnt even aware of these basic physical reality, that is really tell the level of one's martial art.

Henrick, it does not do much good to keep telling these guys that they don't have something, they have no clue what your talking about, and will never see it even if you post videos .

The only way you can even hope for them to even be aware that there is something else going on, is to actually do it on them, still then they still won't have a clue what your doing, but might realize that they don't know they dont know if they are smart.

Why do you waste your time?, If you really want people to realize that WC is more than just tag like slap fighting, you need to have them visit you, and show them first hand.

Good Luck

[Hendrik]

Henrick, it does not do much good to keep telling these guys that they don't have something, they have no clue what your talking about, and will never see it even if you post videos .

The only way you can even hope for them to even be aware that there is something else going on, is to actually do it on them, still then they still won't have a clue what your doing, but might realize that they don't know they dont know if they are smart.

Why do you waste your time?, If you really want people to realize that WC is more than just tag like slap fighting, you need to have them visit you, and show them first hand.

Good Luck

Thanks!

I take your advise and shut up here on with this issue.

[nasmedicine]

Why do you waste your time?, If you really want people to realize that WC is more than just tag like slap fighting, you need to have them visit you, and show them first hand.

Good Luck

Well said, I couldn't have put it any better myself. It's pointless to argue. The proof is in the pudding. Only way to know is to touch hands (instant lie detector).

Cheers,

-Nirav

[guy b.]

Hendrik, with all due respect I'm glad to say that I have no idea what you are talking about!

There isn't anything to know that you don't already know. Hendrik's words are simply pedantic over-elaboration. This chatter is superfluous, acting to obscure understanding rather than aid learning. Scrape away the babble and over-categorisation and you will find that people like Hendrik are saying things that any child understands implicitly after their first playground scuffle.

Linking and delinking are connecting or disconnecting the point of contact (or potential contact) with your structure, respectively. Being linked can be both a benefit (expressing power via structure) or a disadvantage (being moved around by opponent through permanently linked structure). Everyone knows this in their body, even if they don't know it mentally. All decent wrestlers are good at linking and delinking.

Borrowing and releasing are similarly easy to understand. Borrowing is loading force into the structure via the natural springs of the body (joints, fascia, tendons properly aligned), while releasing is giving that loaded force back. It is that embarrassingly simple. Sensible structure can augment the ability of the body to store loaded force, but to be honest many Chinese MA over complicate this and end up being ridiculous abstractions of once sensible ideas. Again wrestling is probably the most simple and direct way to learn variations of this obvious idea.

Other stuff like the oft quoted "float sink swallow spit" formula refers simply to ways of influencing the opponent's "root" (COG), thereby providing opportunities to hurt or control him. Simple.

It is all so simple that people like Hendrik are desperate for it not to be. Hence their invention of endless layers of pointless complexity. It is like doing a doctorate in basic addition and subtraction (i.e. a complete waste of time). Save your time and don't get drawn into the mental sinkhole.