What is qi?

[guy b.]

Which individuals (which is what I asked you for) have made the leap to internal then? Roger Gracie, perhaps? From the most famous ground fighting family in history? If there was anything there, wouldn't he have had access to it?

"ju" or "jiu" is internal. Typically sport arts get there the direct route of fighting using correct principles while completely exhausted. This is generally much quicker than the traditional method.

[anerlich]

"ju" or "jiu" is internal.

"Soft" or "gentle". Never heard that particular translation, or of a relationship with qi, in a Jiu Jitsu context.

Typically sport arts get there the direct route of fighting using correct principles while completely exhausted.

You don't need to get exhausted to roll with technique rather than strength. "Flow rolling". I do it several times a week.

This is generally much quicker than the traditional method.

What is the "traditional method"?

I've been training Jiu Jitsu for about twelve years, been to seminars with some of the best on the planet, and watched gigabytes of video. Still waiting for "internal" to be mentioned.

Ooops ... I remember Tim Cartmell being quoted as saying he believes Jiu Jitsu is internal.

[SimonM]

Ooops ... I remember Tim Cartmell being quoted as saying he believes Jiu Jitsu is internal.

If internal = redirectional then Jiujutsu definitely qualifies. If it means not-influenced-by-foreigners not so much. If it means magical with larping then it applies almost never.

[YouKnowWho]

If internal = redirectional then Jiujutsu definitely qualifies.

I'll say, internal = borrow force (A + B > A). The "redirectional" is just too conservative.

[taai gihk yahn]

Ooops ... I remember Tim Cartmell being quoted as saying he believes Jiu Jitsu is internal.

yeah, but, I mean, c'mon, what could HE possibly know...

[SimonM]

I'll say, internal = borrow force (A + B > A). The "redirectional" is just too conservative.

I will consider the above a friendly amnendment.

[YouKnowWho]

I will consider the above a friendly amnendment.

Yes! It is.

Most "internal' guys just stop at "yielding". Not all "internal" guys go one step beyond into "borrowing force". As far as "borrow force", the Judo guys could do much better job than the Taiji guys.

[guy b.]

"Soft" or "gentle". Never heard that particular translation, or of a relationship with qi, in a Jiu Jitsu context.

What do you think qi is?

You don't need to get exhausted to roll with technique rather than strength. "Flow rolling". I do it several times a week.

Whoa there, not talking about using technique vs strength.

What is the "traditional method"?

Feeling it when not exhausted, usually accomplished through relaxed standing exercises, almost motion, relationship between mind and motion, stepping exercises, etc.

I've been training Jiu Jitsu for about twelve years, been to seminars with some of the best on the planet, and watched gigabytes of video. Still waiting for "internal" to be mentioned.

Ooops ... I remember Tim Cartmell being quoted as saying he believes Jiu Jitsu is internal.

I've been training jiu jitsu for a long time as well. It isn't taught, acknowledged, or even rationally understood in that art, but it does develop it well for those capable of learning by doing (maybe 1 in 5 people). I think this might contribute to why some people are never great at jiu jitsu despite time spent doing it and always remain journeymen at best.

Another crude method of getting it is standing in a fixed posture for very long periods of time until muscle fatigue and failure takes place. Again this only works for a minor proportion of people.

[anerlich]

What do you think qi is?

Not the same as "soft". Nor is "internal" the same as "soft", IMO. "Borrowing force" IMO is indeed a valid and high level concept, but IMO not something that requires more than physics, timing, and sensitivity. And, yes, competent judo and JJ guys usually have it. No latent energy unfelt by the masses is required.

Qi to me is the intrinsic energy that is manipulated in TCM ... or what William Gibson terms a consensual hallucination (to which I do not consent).

If you want to define qi as the use of leverage rather than strength, or softness, that's OK, but IMO the qi concept is not necessary or even particularly useful for maximally efficient and effective performance.

Whoa there, not talking about using technique vs strength.

We seem to be talking about different things, then.

All I feel when really exhausted in rolling is exhaustion. If I pull something off at that stage it's because I've used sound technique, proper positioning, sensitivity, timing and leverage. Not some sort of special energy cultivated somewhere else by means never talked about in the gym.

I've been training jiu jitsu for a long time as well. It isn't taught, acknowledged, or even rationally understood in that art,

Which is rather telling, I think. I'm not sure that "rational understanding" and "qi" have much to do with one another.

but it does develop it well for those capable of learning by doing (maybe 1 in 5 people). I think this might contribute to why some people are never great at jiu jitsu despite time spent doing it and always remain journeymen at best.

I can't really see that. I cannot accept there's some special quality that only 20% develop but the best never teach or discuss and by all evidence never even realise that it's there. The best BJJ teacher I train with regularly, John Will, remains a sceptic on the subject of qi. He is a stellar BJJ teacher, but never brings any of that stuff into his lessons.

How else do you learn a skill like BJJ other than doing?

some people are never great at jiu jitsu despite time spent doing it and always remain journeymen at best

That's true of just about any endeavour. But IMO that comes down to the 10000 hours of practice and other criteria discussed in Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" rather than secret energies never discussed.

I don't claim any particular talent, but IMO looking for a way to excel in BJJ other than directed practice of technique is to embark on a fool's errand.

[nasmedicine]

That's true of just about any endeavour. But IMO that comes down to the 10000 hours of practice and other criteria discussed in Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" rather than secret energies never discussed.

Excellent book! I would recommend everyone to read it.

[WC1277]

Not the same as "soft". Nor is "internal" the same as "soft", IMO. "Borrowing force" IMO is indeed a valid and high level concept, but IMO not something that requires more than physics, timing, and sensitivity. And, yes, competent judo and JJ guys usually have it. No latent energy unfelt by the masses is required.

Qi to me is the intrinsic energy that is manipulated in TCM ... or what William Gibson terms a consensual hallucination (to which I do not consent).

If you want to define qi as the use of leverage rather than strength, or softness, that's OK, but IMO the qi concept is not necessary or even particularly useful for maximally efficient and effective performance.



We seem to be talking about different things, then.

All I feel when really exhausted in rolling is exhaustion. If I pull something off at that stage it's because I've used sound technique, proper positioning, sensitivity, timing and leverage. Not some sort of special energy cultivated somewhere else by means never talked about in the gym.



Which is rather telling, I think. I'm not sure that "rational understanding" and "qi" have much to do with one another.



I can't really see that. I cannot accept there's some special quality that only 20% develop but the best never teach or discuss and by all evidence never even realise that it's there. The best BJJ teacher I train with regularly, John Will, remains a sceptic on the subject of qi. He is a stellar BJJ teacher, but never brings any of that stuff into his lessons.

How else do you learn a skill like BJJ other than doing?



That's true of just about any endeavour. But IMO that comes down to the 10000 hours of practice and other criteria discussed in Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" rather than secret energies never discussed.

I don't claim any particular talent, but IMO looking for a way to excel in BJJ other than directed practice of technique is to embark on a fool's errand.

I'll post it again.....

Qigong is just an exercise of any kind where a balance exists. Sil lim Tao has qigong in it and so does chi sau. It also is not something you 'visualize' but something you feel. A simple awareness of your own body and its limits and in turn it will reward you with being able to balance your extremes. WC in a lot of ways is Qigong in both action and testing. Your structure is only most efficient when you're aware of the limits of either the force you can take or the force you can give, etc.

Bottom line - you "feel" qigong when you're intent on recognizing it and involves no more effort on your part than awareness of your body and good posture. Period. It comes up your back from your Dan tien to the top of your head and then falls down like a waterfall back down to your Dan tien. Any power you exert comes from that collection. WC is already built off of it with a good straight back with the L4 and L5 aligned. Special breathing, visualization, special exercises are all BS! It's just good posture in motion, that's it. Everyone develops it every day to some degree.

[anerlich]

I'll post it again.....

Whatever. Not sure what it had to do with my post or why you needed to quote my post in full.

It comes up your back from your Dan tien to the top of your head and then falls down like a waterfall back down to your Dan tien. Any power you exert comes from that collection.

If you're saying you need awareness of the macrocosmic/microcosmic orbits of qi to "exert any power", I disagree. I doubt many powerlifters require it, nor Roger Gracie, nor did Mike Tyson.

And if you don't need it, it's arguable that it just gets in the way...

I'll post it again.....

Me too, since posting twice apparently increases legitimacy ....

"IMO the qi concept is not necessary or even particularly useful for maximally efficient and effective performance."

[WC1277]

Whatever. Not sure what it had to do with my post or why you needed to quote my post in full.



If you're saying you need awareness of the macrocosmic/microcosmic orbits of qi to "exert any power", I disagree. I doubt many powerlifters require it, nor Roger Gracie, nor did Mike Tyson.

And if you don't need it, it's arguable that it just gets in the way...



Me too, since posting twice apparently increases legitimacy ....

"IMO the qi concept is not necessary or even particularly useful for maximally efficient and effective performance."

No, what I'm saying is that I agree with you. It doesn't matter. It's already there no matter what and the most you can do is just be aware of it...... And, posture is important, that's it..... But thanks for being a smart a$$, you're usually good at that

[anerlich]

No, what I'm saying is that I agree with you. It doesn't matter. It's already there no matter what and the most you can do is just be aware of it...... And, posture is important, that's it.....

Fair enough.

But thanks for being a smart a$$, you're usually good at that

Shucks. Yeah, I do have some skillz

[guy b.]

Not the same as "soft". Nor is "internal" the same as "soft", IMO. "Borrowing force" IMO is indeed a valid and high level concept, but IMO not something that requires more than physics, timing, and sensitivity. And, yes, competent judo and JJ guys usually have it. No latent energy unfelt by the masses is required.

Why do you think that qi has something to do with latent energy unfelt by the masses?

All I feel when really exhausted in rolling is exhaustion. If I pull something off at that stage it's because I've used sound technique, proper positioning, sensitivity, timing and leverage. Not some sort of special energy cultivated somewhere else by means never talked about in the gym.

Special energy?

Which is rather telling, I think. I'm not sure that "rational understanding" and "qi" have much to do with one another.

I guess it really depends who you ask.