What is qi?

[taai gihk yahn]

Heel breathing just mean a type of deep breathing which accord with the spine natural movement. One doesn't have to be cultivate man to practice it. In fact one practice it to cultivate.

yup; it's about breathing with the entire body - u start w respiratory diaphragm, then coordinate with pelvic; u engage the pedal diapraghms (one-half under each foot - the two feet arches when put together are shaped like the dome of the respiratory - this is the Subterranean Spring connection) by the way ground reaction force travels back up the body from when u engage the upper diaphragms - the "skill" is to learn to ride it so that you "float" the cranium and activate the cranial diaphragm (tentorium cerebelli) which stimulates the pituitary gland ("third eye") that sits in the sella tucica of the sphenoid bone, which "pumps" due to the movement of the dural membranes that u synchronize w the breath and ground reaction force; this is the physiological pathway for the Micro Cosmic Orbit; when u synchronize all of these systems, u experience various things, including lightness on top / rootedness on the bottom...

and BTW, u utilize one aspect of the cerebral spinal fluid "flow" rhythm (known to some as the "Long Tide") as a way of mediating / cooling any excess stimulation of sympathetic chain - which results in "heat" of "zhen qi" that Hendrick keeps going on and on about...

Btw, qigong is modern term coin by Liu GUI Jen in the 1950 of communist china. There is no such term in ancient china text.

that is correct;

good lord - we actually agree on both of these things...

[Hendrik]

you really just get stuck on this one thing, and don't even realize how irrelevant it is

I can tell you straight seriously, anyone who doesn't know these basic doesnt know qi development . For they don't know what it is and how to handle, when to handle.

So, one can check out all those so called expert guru or master, if they cannot tell , they don't know zhen qi basic 101.

[xinyidizi]

This is why qigong is laughed at! It makes wild claims that cannot be substantiated in the REAL world. This gives strong evidence that its practitioners are living in the land of make believe.

Qigong is only laughed at where there isn't much authentic stuff available like in western countries. I have seen many high level martial artists of both internal and external styles in China who practice qigong and these people don't live in their fantasy. If an amateur laughs at qigong in the TCMA circles here, people will laugh at him. The low level of qigong discussions on non-Chinese websites gives me the impression that a lot of misunderstanding about qigong is due to not having access to proper TCMA circles.

[Hendrik]

yup; it's about breathing with the entire body - u start w respiratory diaphragm, then coordinate with pelvic; u engage the pedal diapraghms (one-half under each foot - the two feet arches when put together are shaped like the dome of the respiratory - this is the Subterranean Spring connection) by the way ground reaction force travels back up the body from when u engage the upper diaphragms - the "skill" is to learn to ride it so that you "float" the cranium and activate the cranial diaphragm (tentorium cerebelli) which stimulates the pituitary gland ("third eye") that sits in the sella tucica of the sphenoid bone, which "pumps" due to the movement of the dural membranes that u synchronize w the breath and ground reaction force; this is the physiological pathway for the Micro Cosmic Orbit; when u synchronize all of these systems, u experience various things, including lightness on top / rootedness on the bottom...

and BTW, u utilize one aspect of the cerebral spinal fluid "flow" rhythm (known to some as the "Long Tide") as a way of mediating / cooling any excess stimulation of sympathetic chain - which results in "heat" of "zhen qi" that Hendrick keeps going on and on about...

----------


Sorry, that is your interpretation. Not what it is.

Btw, zhen qi doesn't mean heat.

[Matthew]

If you are talking about 真人 breathing to heels, from my reading and understanding it is more implying a cultivated/transformed man, which would be counter to your implication that qigong was a corruption.------------


Heel breathing just mean a type of deep breathing which accord with the spine natural movement. One doesn't have to be cultivate man to practice it. In fact one practice it to cultivate.

Btw, qigong is modern term coin by Liu GUI Jen in the 1950 of communist china. There is no such term in ancient china text.

Thank you Hendrik,

I should have left out the "breathing to heels" part in that post. I was referring to the term 真人 and not to cultivating practices specifically.

Interesting about the term QiGong- thanks for that bit.

Maybe not in ancient times, but I'm not sure Liu was the originator, as there were other teachers who were a bit older than him using it at that time too, indicating the term may be a bit older, even if not ancient. Do you mean Liu Gui Zhen?

I had seen a popping up of articles regarding QiGong after new china too, but the term was used by other masters besides him too.

I have a teacher, her father is a publisher and editor of many Qi Gong/TCM/pratitioners articles at the time of new china (1950 era) including Liu Gui Zhen, Hu Yao Zhen, and others many using Qigong term.

[Hendrik]

Qigong is only laughed at where there isn't much authentic stuff available like in western countries. I have seen many high level martial artists of both internal and external styles in China who practice qigong and these people don't live in their fantasy. If an amateur laughs at qigong in the TCMA circles here, people will laugh at him. The low level of qigong discussions on non-Chinese websites gives me the impression that a lot of misunderstanding about qigong is due to not having access to proper TCMA circles.

Before 1950, it is called neigong in tcma. It is as solid and as real as rock.

[taai gihk yahn]

Simply that. Relax everything you are aware of (i.e. the mobilsers, movement musculature). Stand until you become aware of the stabilisers (postural musculature). Qigong is a process whereby you re-educate the body to use the stabilisers. After gaining awareness of stabiliser musculature the next step is to integrate the movement of the body to use stabilisers against any resistance that is encountered, as if acting against gravity as they do naturally. This is the basis of whole-body strength, hardness from softness. Further training enables the use of the stabilisers in a natural way and integration of the mobilisers and fascia (connective fibrous tissue) in issuing of strength (fajing).

ok, so u seem to b talking about standing statically using ur multifidi as a primary means of controlling postural sways opposed to peripherals (e.g. - short neck flexors versus SCM / scaliness / upper trapezius); then u engage in slow movement so that u organize from the core to the periphery alone and then against resistance; finally, against resistance u coordinate ur musculature with the intrinsic tensegrity of connective tissue, in context of its continuous tension / discontinuous compression properties;

sure;

u can also do this via Pilates, Feldenkries, Alexander Technique, yoga and others - it is not unique to qigong; it's just another pathway; altho I will say that the standing practice is pretty uncommon, perhaps even "unique";

BTW, this is why u get "spontaneous movement" at the beginning stages - u "turn off" the peripheral muscles first; what happens then is u have the core stabilizers auto-correct - meaning that what happens typically to multifidi is that they develop asymmetric patterns, biasing u towards asymmetric rotation / side bending; the peripherals try to pull u back to midline, based on the brain's programming to have the eyes organize to the midline and horizon line; but the multifidi want u to go into weird asymmetric positions in order to "reset" themselves back to normal resting length (active indirect technique); so u get all of these "writhing" movements which is the spinal musculature trying to self-correct; the thing to do here is get out of ur own way - don't try to consciously control it, ur body is "unwinding" on its own - best to let it happen (it may be easier to lie on the floor for this process at the beginning to eliminate the need to organize in gravity while it happens); yoga, Feldenkreis, etc. also deal w this, just more directly; standing (or lying) practice will engage it spontaneously;

once u have "unwound", ur standing practice changes dramatically; u also r much "stronger" when u push...

[taai gihk yahn]

Sorry, that is your interpretation. Not what it is.

sure that is what it is - I went through it opening up my orbits, and figured out the anatomy after the fact

Btw, zhen qi doesn't mean heat.

sure zhen qi doesn't mean heat, but u have the experience of things "heating up" when it circulates initially;

[Hendrik]

Thank you Hendrik,

I should have left out the "breathing to heels" part in that post. I was referring to the term 真人 and not to cultivating practices specifically.

Interesting about the term QiGong- thanks for that bit.

Maybe not in ancient times, but I'm not sure Liu was the originator, as there were other teachers who were a bit older than him using it at that time too, indicating the term may be a bit older, even if not ancient. Do you mean Liu Gui Zhen?

I had seen a popping up of articles regarding QiGong after new china too, but the term was used by other masters besides him too.

I have a teacher, her father is a publisher and editor of many Qi Gong/TCM/pratitioners articles at the time of new china (1950 era) including Liu Gui Zhen, Hu Yao Zhen, and others many using Qigong term.

No problem

In ancient there are various different arts of neigong.
The heel breathing belongs to Tu Na or inhale exhale art.

Liu sickness got heal by a breathing based neigong , he was spreading his neigong, so he coin it as qigong , qi means breathing. After that the term get popular and everyone starts to use it. And it actually is misleading because it is too board and even cult called themself qigong.


In the old term, qi as in qigong means breathing , while Mai means the flow of zhen qi,. So, in ancient , it is called train the breathing and cultivate the Mai. Two different things.

So, i purposely put out that question of the zhen qi and temperature. To see who really know with experience.

Thus, there is tu Na, there is zhen qi and Mai cultivation, there is Shen gong or similar with the samantha of Buddhist. One needs to know all these to know the real deal of before 1950.

For example,
If you take a look at the yik kam slt kuen kuit of 1850 I release a few months ago in this forum. You can see all the tu Na, Mai, and Shen are mentioned in that writing.

[Hendrik]

sure that is what it is - I went through it opening up my orbits, and figured out the anatomy after the fact----------

That doesnt fit ancient description and practice.


sure zhen qi doesn't mean heat, but u have the experience of things "heating up" when it circulates initially;---------

Nope. Not necessary.

[taai gihk yahn]

Please elaborate- actually can you quote the text in question?

unfortunately, I can't - my sifu has said this many times over the years, and I believe it's from the Dao Jang (which I am not personally familiar with), but I may be wrong;

If you are talking about 真人 breathing to heels, from my reading and understanding it is more implying a cultivated/transformed man, which would be counter to your implication that qigong was a corruption.

I've read it only in translation, my Chinese was reading was never more than rudimentary; I think the text I recall is Burton Watson's translation (which I believe is not very highly regarded at this point; I think A C Graham's translation is a little more accurate, but i could be wrong; ), and it might have actually been rendered as "the men of old breathed clear down to their heels" ( I'd have to go back and check, but all my various versions of the Chuang Tzu r in storage for the time being, so i can't just run and look them up)
and u make an interesting point, it well might contradict my exegesis; i think it warrants more research...

It's interesting to look at where things came from, but it seems a stretch to imply that all ancient people naturally did qigong [I]without organizing expedient methods of cultivating Qi
otherwise I don't think we wouldn't see texts/methods of cultivating Qi from ancient times.

well, i think what I mean is that at one point there was simple naturalistic movement in most aspects of daily life, that by their very nature were healthful: walking a lot, swatting a lot, sprinting ever now and again, 'play" based movement - if u look at what a lot of the "paleo diet" people postulate, these fundamental ways of experiencing movement were intrinsically healthful, so people didn't actually need to cultivate anything beyond that;

Although I partially agree, they did it more naturally. Waking up with the sun, eating unprocessed foods, not sitting around in idle on computers, TV, etc, doing work outdoors, having a generally simple life would absolutely help in cultivating. This is a good reason people take vacations, breaks, etc

exactly - think that a lot of "ancient" hermits did just that - live din relative seclusion, had little day to day free floating anxiety, avoided contact w others and hence minimized exposure to diseases, and lived in a generally parasympathetic-state; lots of fresh air, water and vitamin D, and a relatively care-free existence, assuming that they had adequate food supply and whatnot

I'm also interested in more about the differences in brain development between Chinese and others who use language in a literal fashion (such as letters/words/sentences) rather than symbols which have conceptual meaning that can have varied interpretations/ideas.

that is a very interesting topic - I believe that it makes a big difference, especially given that characters can have multiple meanings - suggesting a greater degree of comfort with ambiguity and multiple simultaneous interpretations;

That's why it's so important to have a good teacher. Formulaic approaches address universal audiences and may not be the most expedient in fact. A good teacher can deem both where you are at currently, and how you can improve that

my teacher is pretty "classical"; his version of nei hung is very different from the "standardized" sets u see coming out of PRC, much more detailed and comprehensive;

[taai gihk yahn]

s
That doesnt fit ancient description and practice.

of course it doesn't; they didn't have the level of anatomical knowledge that we have now;

Nope. Not necessary.

didn't say it was necessary, but it can happen; so can other things...

[Hendrik]

of course it doesn't; they didn't have the level of anatomical knowledge that we have now;


didn't say it was necessary, but it can happen; so can other things...

One of the big issue in the west is every one loves to define their own qigong .
And that get me wonder, how the heck is one can get result from all these sElf define stuffs?

So, there is the needy for scientific explanation people, there is the self define gurus.

So, forget about the scientific research, because it is hopeless With this situation.
There is no qigong as the ancient Chinese practice, so what to say?


My reason to be in this forum talking about it is because, for god sake, give mercy to the western people who hope qigong might be able to help them for thier health. If you gurus cannot even have the basic don't mislead others.

For example
Many gurus talk about six healing sounds qigong in the USA is bul****ting what they don't know, selling snake oil .

[Matthew]

unfortunately, I can't - my sifu has said this many times over the years, and I believe it's from the Dao Jang (which I am not personally familiar with), but I may be wrong;


I've read it only in translation, my Chinese was reading was never more than rudimentary; I think the text I recall is Burton Watson's translation (which I believe is not very highly regarded at this point; I think A C Graham's translation is a little more accurate, but i could be wrong; ), and it might have actually been rendered as "the men of old breathed clear down to their heels" ( I'd have to go back and check, but all my various versions of the Chuang Tzu r in storage for the time being, so i can't just run and look them up)
and u make an interesting point, it well might contradict my exegesis; i think it warrants more research...

I really have to again emphasize xinyidizi earlier post that Chinese classical texts can be pretty much void of meaning when translated.

Just to start on even a single character there is some lengthy history here to give you an idea. ZhenRen referring to my saying "cultivated/transformed" man... although my Chinese is not that great.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhenren You can literally read it in discussion as it was used in those Daoist texts too. Now take this entire content of this incomplete wikipedia page on this one character, and multiply it by the number of characters in the DaoDeJing classic, and you have yourself an inevitable recipe for translation disaster

This is just to show- as xinyidizi has already emphasized- translations may sound like wayside hippie talk without classical Chinese contextual/historical understandings. I'm still far away from reading a text like DaoDeJing myself anyway too.

Interesting about the characters and brain development. Maybe if I get time one of these days, I'll search up on some research catalogues online to see if I can dig anything up.

[Matthew]

One of the big issue in the west is every one loves to define their own qigong .
And that get me wonder, how the heck is one can result from all these sElf define stuffs?

So, there is the needy for scientific explanation people, there is the self define gurus.

So, forget about the scientific research, because it is hopeless With this situation.
There is no qigong as the ancient Chinese practice, so what to say?

What can we do? If Qigong was not well defined ever, then we have to define it to use it.

Or just not use it- and use specifics. Also, what is the characters for Tu Na you said?

Also it seems Hu YaoZhen made "qigong" hospital in beijing before Liu published using the term Qigong (1953)? Maybe Liu just made the term popular?

In any case- as you said, it as just a new term for many different methods, neigong, xinyigong, shengong, etc