Grandmaster Chen Xiaowang

[Hebrew Hammer]

I think it is sad how many people think they need to cross-train at beginning and intermediate levels. Sometimes if they just mastered the art they were in, they would find the knowledge they thought they needed to go elsewhere to get.

Having trained in Jujutsu for decades, I can't think of one fighting principle that I didn't also find in Mantis. The set-up and even the execution might appear different between the arts, but the principles remain the same.

You raise a great point, I think even in arts that are considered one dimensional, for example Tae Kwon Do, Boxing, or any grappling art can really be devastating if you chose to master the craft. Many people are looking for the all around invincible style, which may or may not be an art which you are best suited for.

Which style of Jujutsu did you train in?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You raise a great point, I think even in arts that are considered one dimensional, for example Tae Kwon Do, Boxing, or any grappling art can really be devastating if you chose to master the craft. Many people are looking for the all around invincible style, which may or may not be an art which you are best suited for.

Which style of Jujutsu did you train in?

I agree, while a "dedicated system" may not be all around or complete, it can nevertheless be trained in a way that it handles the vast majority of situations.
But for that you need lots of "cross-testing" as opposed to "cross-training".
A system liek boxing that is never exposed to kicks or throws or ground grappling, well fail when it meets that.
However, take that "specialized system" and expose it to those things AND develop the answer to them WITHIN the systems available tools and you have the answer to those praticular sets of problems.
The issue is exposure.
You can't develop the tools to defeat "system B", without ever being exposed to "system B".

[Hebrew Hammer]

The issue is exposure.

You have a one track mind Sanjuro...

[taai gihk yahn]

The upright posture of the form
The foot work of the form
The over extending in the form
Just these 3 would NOT be advisable in standing grappling.

absolutely - however, if u look at the "older" Yang set I earned, u see:
- much lower stances
- different footwork that looks more like entry/throw type stuff
- no over-extension on the moves

of course, this doesn't matter a whit if u don't actually practice the moves, but the point being is that I think it was there at one point, but got removed to: make the form easier for people to learn; de-martialize it so it dud b more "health" oriented; make the form more aesthetically pleasing;

push hands makes sense if u look at it as learning how to set up entry for a throw - like how to get into position for grip dominance, over/under hook, etc.; problem is that it doesn't practice this - stationary push-hands eliminates it, moving push-hands is limited by rule-set as well;

for all intents and purposes, there's really no reason to retro-fit taiji at this point anyway - may as well learn it for what it's worth as a health practice, go study another grappling system for the goods; only thing would be that push0hands as a sub-set skill could give u some purchase in terms of "listening" skill, except it's done in such a limpid manner by most people that it really wouldn't transfer well...

[sanjuro_ronin]

absolutely - however, if u look at the "older" Yang set I earned, u see:
- much lower stances
- different footwork that looks more like entry/throw type stuff
- no over-extension on the moves

of course, this doesn't matter a whit if u don't actually practice the moves, but the point being is that I think it was there at one point, but got removed to: make the form easier for people to learn; de-martialize it so it dud b more "health" oriented; make the form more aesthetically pleasing;

push hands makes sense if u look at it as learning how to set up entry for a throw - like how to get into position for grip dominance, over/under hook, etc.; problem is that it doesn't practice this - stationary push-hands eliminates it, moving push-hands is limited by rule-set as well;

for all intents and purposes, there's really no reason to retro-fit taiji at this point anyway - may as well learn it for what it's worth as a health practice, go study another grappling system for the goods; only thing would be that push0hands as a sub-set skill could give u some purchase in terms of "listening" skill, except it's done in such a limpid manner by most people that it really wouldn't transfer well...

Yes, I see your point and agree.
Push hands is, to me, the grappling element in Taiji, not the form(s).
Of course, push hands as done in the Chen village which is basically clinch grappling.
I've always like Erle's ( RIP) view on Taiji and that may just be the "striker" bias I have and I accept that.

[bawang]

I've always like Erle's ( RIP) view on Taiji and that may just be the "striker" bias I have and I accept that.

all the wrestling techniques in chen tai chi form was removed. their extinct longfist form has the wrestling stance, single leg takedown, firemans carry, reap etc.

.

[sanjuro_ronin]

all the wrestling techniques in chen tai chi form was removed. their extinct longfist form has the wrestling stance, single leg takedown, firemans carry, reap etc.

.

Carry to expand on that?

[bawang]

im saying its not your strikers bias, the chen taichi family removed all their wrestling techniques. where as different boxing stances (although distorted) appear over a dozen times

all the tai chi families dont have proper terms for wrestling techniques. this isnt obivious when they teach non chinese because its mute teaching, but in chinese the lack of words isnt normal.

sometimes in "hardcore extreme push hands" demos they do the overhooks and underhooks but have no names for them. can you see how rediculous that is?


its good to try to make tai chi combat effective, but fake wrestling is not the answer. the only way is to accept that punching a man will not look pretty, and also incorporate actual modern wrestling.

[ShaolinDan]

the only way is to accept that punching a man will not look pretty...

Ali would beg to differ.

[sanjuro_ronin]

im saying its not your strikers bias, the chen taichi family removed all their wrestling techniques. where as different boxing stances (although distorted) appear over a dozen times

all the tai chi families dont have proper terms for wrestling techniques. this isnt obivious when they teach non chinese because its mute teaching, but in chinese the lack of words isnt normal.

sometimes in "hardcore extreme push hands" demos they do the overhooks and underhooks but have no names for them. can you see how rediculous that is?


its good to try to make tai chi combat effective, but fake wrestling is not the answer. the only way is to accept that punching a man will not look pretty, and also incorporate actual modern wrestling.

Hmmm, interesting point.
My understanding was that the forms built the "power generation" for the strikes ( and some of the grappling -pulling actions) and that the push-hands drills is what built the foundation fro grappling.

[bawang]

two hand push hands really does look like it has origins in wrestling and can help train wrestling, but tai chi no longer has actual wrestling.

wrestling was already losing popularity in ming dynasty for cultural reasons. then the qing dynasty banned chinese from wrestling altogether.


often these days people feel the need to claim their martial arts is "complete". i think this is vanity. if you wanna wrestling then learn wrestling.

[sanjuro_ronin]

two hand push hands really does look like it has origins in wrestling and can help train wrestling, but tai chi no longer has actual wrestling.

wrestling was already losing popularity in ming dynasty for cultural reasons. then the qing dynasty banned chinese from wrestling altogether.


often these days people feel the need to claim their martial arts is "complete". i think this is vanity. if you wanna wrestling then learn wrestling.

I agree that, for some reason, specialization in the MA has become a "dirty word" and i don't know why.
Probably a MMA thing I guess.

[bawang]

i think its refusing to confront criticism and problems, and unwilling to learn from others. "we dont need to learn xxx, its hidden in xxx"




wrestling techniques in old taichi (chen village hong quan and changquan) are very obvious:
big qin na stance (grappling stance), low insert (single leg), raise urn (double leg), pulling carrots (side double leg) , reverse insert (firemans carry), tiger hug (bear hug) , bull crushes man both fall down (reap)

[Hebrew Hammer]

i think its refusing to confront criticism and problems, and unwilling to learn from others. "we dont need to learn xxx, its hidden in xxx"




wrestling techniques in old taichi (chen village hong quan and changquan) are very obvious:
big qin na stance (grappling stance), low insert (single leg), raise urn (double leg), pulling carrots (side double leg) , reverse insert (firemans carry), tiger hug (bear hug) , bull crushes man both fall down (reap)

Pulling carrots sounds horrifying, I'd put that one back in. Interesting tidbits Bawang...bery bery interestink!

[YouKnowWho]

Does Taiji adress the clinch and throws? ...
The upright posture of the form
The foot work of the form
The over extending in the form
Just these 3 would NOT be advisable in standing grappling.

You forget to mention the major mission part and that is "Taiji has no leg usage". How can a grappler doesn't know how to sweep, cut, hook, lift, twist, trip, scoop, spring, ...

Ther are other major grappling elements that are also missing in Taiji. There are:

- touch head to knee.
- twist body on the spine line.
- balance on single leg.
- ...

For example, the "cloud hands" work well with 'foot sweep". Where is the "foot sweep" in Taiji?

Long time ago I had created a new Taiji form with those leg usage integrated into it. My teacher said, "Don't give to Taiji the credit that it doesn't deserve." I no longer teach that new Taiji form to anybody.