No wasted movements?

[jmd161]

I'm not sure how to word this so be patient with me..

No wasted moves or movements is something my sifu stresses... It is something I hear a lot in CMA but, I wonder how much it's really trained? I can't speak for other schools or styles but, in watching vid on the ne...t I don't see it trained.

In Hak Fu like most styles we have forms, drills, and typical CMA training. What my sifu does is take us beyond that and trains us to cut down the wasted movements within the techniques we've learned. For example, a technique may be to block and then strike with another technique... we learn those techniques/movements then we train to do it all in one technique/movement.

By that I mean... using just one arm to both block and simultaneously strike! In Hak Fu we have a one armed form so maybe we train this way because of the form? In our training once you learn the one armed form you can only spar using one arm. So if you spar a brother that doesn't know the form... he can use both arms while you're limited to the one.

This form is trained using your weak arm... this is to bring your weaker arm up to par with your dominant one. Since training this way I totally understand the no wasted movements cliche'...

I'm just curious how many others work on techniques this way?

[David Jamieson]

work both sides equally. if weak on one side, work with it a little more than your confident side.

every set and drill we do is balanced to left or right.

My personal observation is that I have more power in my left and more accuracy on my right. So I work it from that angle and adjust accordingly in practice.

[YouKnowWho]

cut down the wasted movements ...

1 is better than 1,2 and 1,2 is better than 1,2,3. This is the key for maximum speed.

work both sides equally.

I prefer to only work one side but different moves on both sides. This way I can develop twice as many moves. For example, move A, B, C, ... for right side, and move, X, Y, Z, ... for left side. The reason is simple, if I can repeat my drill 1,000 times, I can perform it better than just repeat it 500 times.

[TenTigers]

I might not be saying the same thing as you, so if I am off point, sorry.
I love it when people say that there are too many wasted movements in Kung-Fu, as it usually means that they simply never learned proper usage. They don't know it, and either their teacher didn't know it, or for some reason, he chose not to teach it..to them.
"If someone grabs my wrist, I roll it over as in gwa choy, use my other palm to strike
his arm, to break free, and then strike."
"um..no, If someone grabs your wrist, hit him with your other hand, stupid."

Why on earth would a system designed for self-defense and survival be passed down with superfluous movements?

Of course, there are some cases. Some systems were combined with Opera systems, some systems added more flash, due to "marketing," meaning that the need for bringing in new students took precedence over the need for self-defense. This might be seen in modern versions of traditional systems. And some unscrupulous teachers saved the good stuff for whatever, whenever. This could be when he thought the student had put in the time, or when the right one came along, and died before the Golden Child showed up...

[YouKnowWho]

Why on earth would a system designed for self-defense and survival be passed down with superfluous movements?

It's different training stage. During the beginner training stage, you want to divide one move into many sub moves. This way the beginner can understand the detail. In the intermeiate training stage, you have to connect all sub moves back into 1 move.

For example, the following "stealing step' stance should not exist in the intermediate training stage. It should be just a "turn". Anybody tries to post in that posture can be called as "flash".

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2099/twiststance.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why on earth would a system designed for self-defense and survival be passed down with superfluous movements?

Some different views to that:
Various techniques work for different body types and/or temperaments.
There isn't always a "one size fits all" solution.
Like John mentioned, sometimes for beginners something 'else" is needed.
An example is:
Stage 1) Block and counter
Stage 2) simultaneous defense and counter
Stage 3) attack is defense / defense is attack.

Of course some systems do all that with very little in terms of techniques, look at boxing, but on a whole, variety of options is NOT a bad thing.

[TenTigers]

also, some use it as a teaching method.
Here's an example; ippon kumite. One step sparring. This was originally meant to be a beginner's teaching method so that the beginning student can learn distance, timing and focus. Once this is learned, the strike comes off the lead hand, rather than the step through reverse punch. Big difference.
Now we see schools that have three step sparring, (you should NEVER step back three times while blocking-sure, teach it to noobs so they can learn basic skills, but then once that is understood, it's time to leave the mush, and move onto solid food.) and get this-advanced one-step sparring.

But..I have seen extraneous movement taught in Wing Chun, Hung-Ga, CLF, and SPM.
Depends on the teacher.

[JamesC]

also, some use it as a teaching method.
Here's an example; ippon kumite. One step sparring. This was originally meant to be a beginner's teaching method so that the beginning student can learn distance, timing and focus. Once this is learned, the strike comes off the lead hand, rather than the step through reverse punch. Big difference.
Now we see schools that have three step sparring, (you should NEVER step back three times while blocking-sure, teach it to noobs so they can learn basic skills, but then once that is understood, it's time to leave the mush, and move onto solid food.) and get this-advanced one-step sparring.

But..I have seen extraneous movement taught in Wing Chun, Hung-Ga, CLF, and SPM.
Depends on the teacher.

Is this the reason behind 2-man sparring sets? I only ask because I don't know. Not a CMArtist.

[TenTigers]

Is this the reason behind 2-man sparring sets? I only ask because I don't know. Not a CMArtist.

two-man sets can be a teaching aid, but after awhile, you need to stop being cooperative, increase the speed and the intent, and/or break out of the set.
Trouble is, most of these sets became demo sets only.
Take weapon sets-two man staff sets? There should never be two sounds-clack-clack-clack.

[-N-]

No wasted moves or movements is something my sifu stresses... It is something I hear a lot in CMA but, I wonder how much it's really trained? I can't speak for other schools or styles but, in watching vid on the ne...t I don't see it trained.

Movements can be combined at different levels.

Here is an example of simultaneous controlling, attacking, and advancing motions.



Here is an example of combined upper and lower attacks, with the low kick combined with advancing footwork from green shirt.



Here is an example of 2 palm attacks with controlling motion that immediately transitions into ou lou choi attack. All together there are 3 attacking and 3 controlling motions.

[jmd161]

I might not be saying the same thing as you, so if I am off point, sorry.
I love it when people say that there are too many wasted movements in Kung-Fu, as it usually means that they simply never learned proper usage. They don't know it, and either their teacher didn't know it, or for some reason, he chose not to teach it..to them.
"If someone grabs my wrist, I roll it over as in gwa choy, use my other palm to strike
his arm, to break free, and then strike."
"um..no, If someone grabs your wrist, hit him with your other hand, stupid."

Why on earth would a system designed for self-defense and survival be passed down with superfluous movements?

Of course, there are some cases. Some systems were combined with Opera systems, some systems added more flash, due to "marketing," meaning that the need for bringing in new students took precedence over the need for self-defense. This might be seen in modern versions of traditional systems. And some unscrupulous teachers saved the good stuff for whatever, whenever. This could be when he thought the student had put in the time, or when the right one came along, and died before the Golden Child showed up...

I know what you're speaking of but, no that's not what I was trying to convey..

Stage 3) attack is defense / defense is attack

This is more what I was talking about... more along your block is also your attack. In other words we look to attack an attack with our own attack. We intercept the attack with our own strikes... so a block is a strike and a strike is a block. We don't really block and then strike because that's seen as wasted movement. We also don't train to block with the left while striking with the right... what we train is to do this all with one hand/arm while always having a free hand/arm.

I haven't seen others train this way and when sparring/training with others it seems to confuse them.. Also, we use a lot more shuffle steps than most... we train to attack with are legs while we attack with our arms sort of a high/low attacking. There is a lot of stealth leg attacks with in Hak Fu.... I call them stealth because they are usually done while an attack to the face or head area is taking place making it hard to see the low leg attacks.

[jmd161]

Movements can be combined at different levels.



Here is an example of combined upper and lower attacks, with the low kick combined with advancing footwork from green shirt.

We train this a lot but, the kick would be attacking the knee or shin while the opponent stepped forward to attack. In a sense stepping on the knee or down across the shin. The upper attack would be more of a single arm attack but we do use faints or distractions with the other also.

[TenTigers]

I know what you're speaking of but, no that's not what I was trying to convey..
.

DOH!

In line with what you are saying. we also want to attack the attack-intercept the opponent's intention, and shut him down on the first beat.
Our "blocks" are defensive strikes, meant to disable the opponent on first touch, rather than simply block.

[-N-]

We train this a lot but, the kick would be attacking the knee or shin while the opponent stepped forward to attack.

We use that in any context.

In this case, white shirt didn't want to engage, and just ran when green shirt tried to grab him and hit him.

Green shirt tried to chase him down and got a kick in.

White shirt could have came in to interrupt with his own attack. Green shirt would use the low kick then as well.