There are two kinds of teachers

[Drake]

You didn't take your rape well at all, did you?

I suggest therapy. Whining about it on an internet message board makes you look like you are weak, and ready and willing to be raped again.

[RWilson]

You didn't take your rape well at all, did you?

I suggest therapy. Whining about it on an internet message board makes you look like you are weak, and ready and willing to be raped again.

Sorry I do not have a protected roof over my head paid for by the government like you. Sorry I have to make my own meals or pay for it with my own money. Sorry I have to actually see mt wife and kids and not shrug off responsibility for 7 years. Sorry I have to actually get dressed up for work. Sorry I do not have to have manliness and discipline artificially placed in me by the military. Sorry I do not have all my meals prepared for me like a kid when my mom used to do it. You are the coolest military man I know.

[kuniggety]

Since when does being in the military mean you don't take care of yourself and shrug off your family?

[LivingArt]

that's a nice loaded question thread wilson, how about you present a reasonable discussion for this forum ?

you don't believe or havent been shown the practical sides of CMA, while giving examples of other MA's ? That's fine, but why present this one sided argument in the KUNG FU section instead of the MMA section?

[ginosifu]

Gino,
The problem with what you stated is you are assuming the techniques you are drilling are the way it is going to happen. The very term technique is applied principles. This can only be done spontaneously.

No drill / technique / stepping pattern etc, will ever work exactly how you solo practice it. Solo practice (if done right) helps your muscle memory to re-act in a certain way when attacked. Stepping patterns like figure 8 walking are only footwork drills and they are only designed to help you step and move in a certain way, NOT a fighting technique per say. As you apply it, so many variables come into play that it probably will never look exactly like your drill or technique.

You cannot imagine how someone will react and drill that one move, or sequence of moves, because the muscle memory you are building is based on falsehood. You will train this one thing and the opponent will move in a totally different manner and your muscle memory will go back to kickboxing

No one can determine how a person will move / fight / punch etc. However, most good solo practice techniques / drills are generalized to make you move / punch / kick a certain way. These techniques help you move, following that systems principles and theories. Not to make follow that drill to the "T". If you were to watch me fight or spar, it will definately not look like kickboxing no matter what my opponent does. I apply my technique no matter what they do or where they move to.Maybe one of these days I will try to put up a cilp of some sparring stuff so you guys can see.

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

But it begs the question why do you want to drill figure 8 circle walking into muscle memory for fighting?

Stepping patterns like figure 8 walking are only to teach you how move / step in a certain way. In Northern Shaolin we do whats called side stepping. There are many solo side stepping drills that I have done over the years..... all geared to help muscle memory force you to move / step in a certain way, NOT fight a certain way.

ginosifu

[RWilson]

that's a nice loaded question thread wilson, how about you present a reasonable discussion for this forum ?

you don't believe or havent been shown the practical sides of CMA, while giving examples of other MA's ? That's fine, but why present this one sided argument in the KUNG FU section instead of the MMA section?

You assumed the first category of teachers I mentioned are from mma. Interesting. Is it because you personally have not found a tcma teacher in the first category? Present the other side of the argument. Why does tcma training mean show stdents the shell(forms) and extrapolate techniques from it?

It is not just tcma. I have some stuff from Stephn Hayes the American ninja. H does the same thing. He shows a ninja form sequence and then tries to apply it to real situations. A mechanical sequence cannot be applied spontaneously.

[SimonM]

I'm going to try being all reasonable for a second. Shocking, I know, right? And suggest that on the issue of drilling and muscle memory both Ginosifu and RWilson are half-right.

Footwork drills are important. Anybody who has ever picked up a sword knows that (and sorry, but sword-work is a big part of my kung fu so it's going to matter to me - anybody with an issue with the practicality of that can meet me with a bokken in his hand ) and, frankly, it can be helpful to drill the footwork intensively without distractions so that your legs will get used to moving in certain ways.

That being said, where things fall apart is when people try to apply the same methodology to everything. Once you add a resistive element, whether it's a body you are kicking, an opponent trying to evade you hand-strikes or an opponent to wrestle with, the way you will use your muscles DOES change. Spending too long drilling a movement without any hint of practical application is actually a counter-productive training methodology, you are ingraining bad habits.

In other words use the tool that works for what you are training. If you need to learn how to move around an environment do that. If you need to learn how to throw a guy into the ground do that.

[bawang]

Sorry I do not have a protected roof over my head paid for by the government like you. Sorry I have to make my own meals or pay for it with my own money. Sorry I have to actually see mt wife and kids and not shrug off responsibility for 7 years. Sorry I have to actually get dressed up for work. Sorry I do not have to have manliness and discipline artificially placed in me by the military. Sorry I do not have all my meals prepared for me like a kid when my mom used to do it. You are the coolest military man I know.

drake is a warrior. he is what you fantasize, but failed, to be.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm going to try being all reasonable for a second. Shocking, I know, right? And suggest that on the issue of drilling and muscle memory both Ginosifu and RWilson are half-right.

Footwork drills are important. Anybody who has ever picked up a sword knows that (and sorry, but sword-work is a big part of my kung fu so it's going to matter to me - anybody with an issue with the practicality of that can meet me with a bokken in his hand ) and, frankly, it can be helpful to drill the footwork intensively without distractions so that your legs will get used to moving in certain ways.

That being said, where things fall apart is when people try to apply the same methodology to everything. Once you add a resistive element, whether it's a body you are kicking, an opponent trying to evade you hand-strikes or an opponent to wrestle with, the way you will use your muscles DOES change. Spending too long drilling a movement without any hint of practical application is actually a counter-productive training methodology, you are ingraining bad habits.

In other words use the tool that works for what you are training. If you need to learn how to move around an environment do that. If you need to learn how to throw a guy into the ground do that.

Agreed.
Too many times things fall apart because the base is NOT developed under the context it will be used.
You can take almost ANY static and dead exercise and make it dynamic and applicable to real fighting, you just have to do it BY FIGHTING with it enough.
The other issue that is especially "harmful" for the more "specialized system" ( Systems that tend to fight in an "unnatural way" compared to say boxing) is that those system were developed to fighting AGAINST other systems BUT the tend to be trained and ( when they fight( fought against each other.
Not the way to go.

[RWilson]

drake is a warrior. he is what you fantasize, but failed, to be.

If I am a cook in the army am I a warrior?? Not everyone is on the field of battle. Drake is in army intelligence.

[ShaolinDan]

If I am a cook in the army am I a warrior?? Not everyone is on the field of battle. Drake is in army intelligence.

It would make you a "Cookie." Military cooks are still soldiers. Intelligence operations are the epitome of the Art of War. You are really obnoxious. But I guess that's the point?

[RWilson]

I'm going to try being all reasonable for a second. Shocking, I know, right? And suggest that on the issue of drilling and muscle memory both Ginosifu and RWilson are half-right.

Footwork drills are important. Anybody who has ever picked up a sword knows that (and sorry, but sword-work is a big part of my kung fu so it's going to matter to me - anybody with an issue with the practicality of that can meet me with a bokken in his hand ) and, frankly, it can be helpful to drill the footwork intensively without distractions so that your legs will get used to moving in certain ways.

That being said, where things fall apart is when people try to apply the same methodology to everything. Once you add a resistive element, whether it's a body you are kicking, an opponent trying to evade you hand-strikes or an opponent to wrestle with, the way you will use your muscles DOES change. Spending too long drilling a movement without any hint of practical application is actually a counter-productive training methodology, you are ingraining bad habits.

In other words use the tool that works for what you are training. If you need to learn how to move around an environment do that. If you need to learn how to throw a guy into the ground do that.

Most sensible post ever

[Dale Dugas]

I attended a Quaker College(Earlham College) and many of my Quaker teachers had served during the war as medics, and other non-fighting but essential personnel.

They do not fight, but they serve.

You do not have to kill people to be a warrior or soldier.

[RWilson]

It would make you a "Cookie." Military cooks are still soldiers. Intelligence operations are the epitome of the Art of War. You are really obnoxious. But I guess that's the point?

I am not trying to be obnoxious.