teaching Chin-Na/Cum-Na

[TenTigers]

When I learned joint manipulations, my teacher would perform joint-locks pretty dang hard.
he would take you past the point of,"Ahhh-ahhh!" and right to the point of involuntary leg spasms and gurgling noises-what seemed to me as right before the breaking point. Every time. If there was a lock that took you down, you literally tried to race him to the floor (face first)
You learned fast-mainly because you didn't want him to do it again!
But...you also knew the technique worked, and you knew the exact angle because you recognized the feeling/pain.
You also had a healthy respect/fear for your teacher.
(These stupid conversations on the forums about asking your teacher to fight, etc. would never even enter your mind.)
So..for the teachers here, especially John and Gino, who do teach chin-na, how hard do you crank it when you are teaching a student?
I ask this because I have the feeling that I have been way too kind to my students when it comes to them feeling certain techniques, strikes included. Way kinder than my teachers were to me, and I'm still here. But I would like to know your experiences, and opinions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You pretty much crank the lock to the max that is safe.
Worse case you may get a dislocation, no biggie.
Eventually a fighter must know the PAIN of any technqiue and the consequences of any technique.
This is why you DO get choked out or get something dislocated if you don't tap in Judo/JJ/Submission grappling.

[Brule]

You apply as much as it takes for the guy to feel the pain and not have any chance to resist it cause once you start getting too soft on the lock you know some jerk is gonna resist you and try to make you look like a fool.

[ginosifu]

TT:

My teacher demonstrated the kum na technique and made you eat dirt. He was always polite and was not trying hurt us but, really trying to let us fell the real power of the lock.

I do the same to all my students. Apply enough pressure to ensure they feel and understand how much power is in the lock so they know how much to instill to fellow student as they practice. We have a tap out system in place.... If you feel that it is more than hurting you and or you feel they have lock done right, then you either tap yourself or tap them and they will immediately release the lock.

No one is trying to hurt each other but there must be some force applied or you are just playing pattycake.

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some locks are such that they don't need pain to make them work ( those are commonly called immobilizations) but most small joint ones do, especially fingers and wrists and to demo them correctly ie: get the right reaction, one must do them hard.
Of course the point of those attacks are NOT pain compliance or immobilization BUT dislocation and when done correctly ( which you can't do in training) the end result is only one: dislocation.
In training we can come close but to do that, PAIN is a must.

[David Jamieson]

Many kum na are pain inducing.
joint seizes, holds and manipulations are myriad.

where did you start? handshake or wristlock?

[taai gihk yahn]

I ask this because I have the feeling that I have been way too kind to my students when it comes to them feeling certain techniques, strikes included. Way kinder than my teachers were to me, and I'm still here.

i agree w all the other guys - I mean, CTS used to grab us pretty hard - you knew what it was supposed to feel like; all the jujitsu / aikido guys I trained with, when they put on the lock, u really felt it, no question about it;

just curious, what leads you to that conclusion? were u purposefully scaling things back so as not to injure them, or freak them out? I can totally understand in the world of soccer moms w lawyers on speed dial, why one might b more cautious than not in this department...

[TenTigers]

Handshake if they owe me moneys.
"Hey, how are you? "(handshake)
"OW-OW-STOP SIFU-OW..!"
"You're late on your tuition..."


ok, so I'm 16/17 trs old and taking TKD and Hapkido.
My teacher when he taught techniques from a handshake, would always offer his hand and say,"How ah yoo..?" (Korean accent)
and then bend you into a screaming pretzel.
One day, I'm waiting for my Mom to pick me up from class outside of Sabumnim's office, and a guy walks in, apparently a long time student..who's been recently absent.
-and I hear this:
"Hi Sabumnim."
"Paul! Rong time no see! How ah yoo...?"
"OW-OW-OW-AHHH"
I look in and Sabumnim is sitting at his desk, and has this guy in a wristlock bent over backwards across the desk, writhing in agony. Sitting there he calmly says to him,
"How come you no come to crass..?"

Old school rocks!

[TenTigers]

i agree w all the other guys - I mean, CTS used to grab us pretty hard - you knew what it was supposed to feel like; all the jujitsu / aikido guys I trained with, when they put on the lock, u really felt it, no question about it;

just curious, what leads you to that conclusion? were u purposefully scaling things back so as not to injure them, or freak them out? I can totally understand in the world of soccer moms w lawyers on speed dial, why one might b more cautious than not in this department...

yep, and what Brule said.

[bawang]

i cum na all the time babby. all the time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Handshake if they owe me moneys.
"Hey, how are you? "(handshake)
"OW-OW-STOP SIFU-OW..!"
"You're late on your tuition..."


ok, so I'm 16/17 trs old and taking TKD and Hapkido.
My teacher when he taught techniques from a handshake, would always offer his hand and say,"How ah yoo..?" (Korean accent)
and then bend you into a screaming pretzel.
One day, I'm waiting for my Mom to pick me up from class outside of Sabumnim's office, and a guy walks in, apparently a long time student..who's been recently absent.
-and I hear this:
"Hi Sabumnim."
"Paul! Rong time no see! How ah yoo...?"
"OW-OW-OW-AHHH"
I look in and Sabumnim is sitting at his desk, and has this guy in a wristlock bent over backwards across the desk, writhing in agony. Sitting there he calmly says to him,
"How come you no come to crass..?"

Old school rocks!

Ah the memories...
Never liked wrist locks myself, I have small wrists and they always hurt so freaking much !

[bawang]

a lot of qin na taught today is militia police techniques for arresting and tying up untrained civilians.

as a combat art qin na is chinese wrestling with hard grabs allowed. chinese traditional wrestling was a sport and didnt allow "pinching".

for example the neck clinch, chinese wrestling uses hook, but in qin na you grab the hair. for underhook you also grab the hair. for overhook you grab the skin.


a common poem is "qin na stance seals the legs".

[taai gihk yahn]

yep, and what Brule said.

great - damed if u do, damed if u don't

I tell ya, every time I think "freak this PT cr@p, I'll just open a school and teach classically oriented TCMA", I think about what guys like u, Gus etc go thru on a daily basis trying to keep things in balance, and then things don't seem so bad...

[JamesC]

Cry in the gym so you can laugh in the ring.

[ShaolinDan]

My experience is that you've got to adjust your chinna to your students/training partner. Part of the skill is reading people quickly. You want to go as hard as you can without making them feel abused...this is a huge range and does not necessarily correlate with their toughness; it's a real challenge. Also it depends on how people feel about you...if I applied my chinna as hard as my shifu does on the same person(assuming I even can) a lot more people would get upset with me than get upset with him--how much license do you have to hurt the person you're working with?