Qi Cultivating Exercises

[taai gihk yahn]

Read this recent thread : http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=63985



And don't forget to get some popcorn...

Lol. The trolls have found your thread, and like the other thread, want to promote their is no chi propaganda.

interestingly enough, btw, notice that it was the two "qi true believers" who actually caused the derailment of this thread...

[taai gihk yahn]

This may have already been asked elsewhere, but what is the current understanding behind qi cultivating exercises such as the yijinjing/i chin ching and san chin/sanzhan forms? How do these build qi?

Somewhat related, but I have also read and understood that when muscles are tensed the blood and qi flow away from the area. Then when released the qi flows back to the area in a stronger fashion...almost like a river surge.

Thoughts?

so I'll get back on topic...


in regards to yi jin jing / yik gan ging: this is sort of a "catch-all" name, insofar as what I have seen / practiced over the years as YGG has varied greatly from place to place; to wit, the version that I ultimately practiced is very different from any other one I have seen - it's much longer (43 distinct "exercises"), and much more varied - a combination of "hard" and "soft" for lack of better descriptors; a lot of the postures / exercises are highly detailed as regards the breathing (e.g. - where to breathe in / out, how much, what part of the thoracic cage to "visualize", etc.); IMPO, this is a very yogic influenced set, with a lot of Taoist stuff mixed in; as a sequence, the way i was taught was that for different effects, u change around the order - a general "health" sequence, a "martial" one, various others for different types of imbalances; I've played around with the order myself in a modular sense: meaning that there are certain groups of postures that u wudn't really separate, but u can move around blocks of postures to get different effects: for example, in the morning v. evening, summer v. winter, if I am low or high energy on a given day; if I have time to do the entire sequence or only part; these r all things one can consider when selecting; as far as building "qi", some part of the the set do it directly (e.g. - u visualize / stimulate specific things), others passively (u do the movement w/out focusing so much on anything "internal"); (again, as I have stated elsewhere, I don't look at "qi" as a specific 'thing" - I look at all the physiological markers of homeostatic function, and consider them when doing YGG - "qi" is just one way of talking about how all of these components summate and interact)

as relates to Sanchin, that can vary - I have seen Sanchin done in several ways, from hard, guttural breathing to very soft breathing; there r sum sequences in YGG that look similar, altho sum of the movements actually look more like the kata Tensho; so probably there is a relationship somewhere...

[xinyidizi]

Eat good food, breathe healthy air, exercise moderately, reduce unnecessary stress, ameliorate any persistent negative emotions, get a healthy amount of sleep and the magic will fill you naturally without any extraneous effort.

This way saves a lot of time too!

This advice is good as a preparation for doing anything but certainly not enough for building a real skill. You could give this advice to an athlete but it wouldn't be enough for building the muscles and skills he needs in sports. You could give it to a musician but it wouldn't be enough for building the neural connections for playing music.

In 先天 our jing,qi, blood, shen, ... are in their most natural conditions but in 後天 we suddenly become self-aware and our awareness will be our guide for whatever path we choose in our lives. Intent/awareness(意） is like appointing a leader for a village. If the leader doesn't give the community direction and motivation the community won't grow to anything bigger than what it is. It is only after setting directions for the community that the journey would start. After starting this process the leader needs to make laws for the community to ensure the unity in moving towards the goal. If he is too hard on people they might rebel against him and if he is too soft they won't listen to him and it would result in chaos. However a great leader would know how to make a balance between giving freedom and forcing people to move towards the goal. In that case the village would grow to a city, the city would grow to a civilization and at its highest point people would become so civilized that they wouldn't need any laws to force them or unite them. That's the highest point of 意 and that's how 意 can advance the community and at the same time restore the most natural conditions in the society.

[xinyidizi]

interestingly enough, btw, notice that it was the two "qi true believers" who actually caused the derailment of this thread...

The popcorn is necessary for reading the posts of so many uninformed people who think they are qigong masters and are still wondering whether qi exists! However there were a few good posts in that thread that might be helpful for the OP in case he is patient enough to find them.

[taai gihk yahn]

The popcorn is necessary for reading the posts of so many uninformed people who think they are qigong masters and are still wondering whether qi exists! However there were a few good posts in that thread that might be helpful for the OP in case he is patient enough to find them.

and yet, whereas I actually contributed something of substance to the OP's question, you still have not...

if you want to continue to use this knee-jerk, reductive argument, that's your prerogative; unfortunately, holding an awareness of the nuanced and at times difficult to digest reality is another matter; I'll tell you what - I'll write it down on a piece of paper, put it in the next room, and you can astrally project in and read it for reference; because, of course, that's not crazy or anything

[Empty_Cup]

In 先天 our jing,qi, blood, shen, ... are in their most natural conditions but in 後天 we suddenly become self-aware and our awareness will be our guide for whatever path we choose in our lives. Intent/awareness(意） is like appointing a leader for a village. If the leader doesn't give the community direction and motivation the community won't grow to anything bigger than what it is. It is only after setting directions for the community that the journey would start. After starting this process the leader needs to make laws for the community to ensure the unity in moving towards the goal. If he is too hard on people they might rebel against him and if he is too soft they won't listen to him and it would result in chaos. However a great leader would know how to make a balance between giving freedom and forcing people to move towards the goal. In that case the village would grow to a city, the city would grow to a civilization and at its highest point people would become so civilized that they wouldn't need any laws to force them or unite them. That's the highest point of 意 and that's how 意 can advance the community and at the same time restore the most natural conditions in the society.

I am indeed still sifting through the conversation in the other thread about qi. Didn't realize how open the debate was on the existence (or lack thereof) of qi. That aside, I'd like to dig into the above post a bit more to understand the meaning.
Firstly, what are the definitions for the Chinese characters " In 先天..." and "in 後天..."?
Secondly, if I understand your analogy to the community correctly, are you saying that the mind/Yi (leader) is directing the qi (community) and that through practice the mind/Yi can direct the qi to restore the natural condition?

[mawali]

This may have already been asked elsewhere, but what is the current understanding behind qi cultivating exercises such as the yijinjing/i chin ching and san chin/sanzhan forms? How do these build qi?

Somewhat related, but I have also read and understood that when muscles are tensed the blood and qi flow away from the area. Then when released the qi flows back to the area in a stronger fashion...almost like a river surge.

Thoughts?

The 'real' answer may depend on your state of being, experience, instruction and personal journey! Qi is already present so a combination of movement, stretching, muscular innervation, gravity,etc all help together to make a healthier person. Of course, the nutritional intake also figures into the end result.
Pleased do not take this as gospel. Many views abound. Just respect each view and tend to your own and make it simple!

[xinyidizi]

先天 is normally translated to pre-natal and 後天 to post-natal. However I think the meaning is deeper than that and 先天 means anything in its original heavenly form and 後天 means after taking a physical shape in this world. My English is not good and the reason I didn’t use the English words is because I am not sure that’s the right translation.

As for my analogy I was implying that not taking action won’t result in the ideal Daoist wuwei(non-action). As long as we are in 後天 everything exists in opposites and in order to bring everything back to the ideal state one needs a balance of using force and letting go. The same thing applies to qi cultivation exercises; you need to force the qi with your yi and at the same time you need to let it flow naturally. Finding the balance between these two will help you to succeed and progress.

[Scott R. Brown]

you r really this obtuse? or r u actually this dumb? u just can't handle nuance / shades of gray - it's either / or for u;

Will you now agree? DUMB AS A DOOR!!!
__________________________________________________ ________________

Here is the thing,

The exercises used to develop qi are the same ones used for millenia by naturalistic peoples and shamans. There is nothing exceptionally special or unique about them because one follows a Chinese tradition.

The exercises bring specific results; there is a cause and effect relationship between the exercises and physiological and psychological effects. These results occur whether one believes in qi or not and whether qi exists or not.

So, one may want to perform the exercises regardless, if they find benefit from them.

However, they will not make you a better fighter because of qi, they will make you a better fighter because the mental exercises teach you to discipline your mind which will enhance your focus, and reduce unnecessary and unproductive emotions that increase your stress level and interfere with spontaneous movements and responses.

These benefits have nothing to do with Qi! Qi is a metaphor for a conglomeration of effects, observed by Early Taoists/Chinese, of phenomena that were un-explainable using the available social, political, religious and scientific paradigms.

When a people seek to make sense of their world, they must necessarily theorize about connections between apparent causes and what appear to be their effects. Qi was the theoretical solution to questions they could not answer concerning specific causes and their apparent effects.

Absent a scientific understanding of physiology and biomechanics a theory was postulated and then held to be true concerning the effects created by performing specific actions/exercises.

Then ignorant and foolish individuals many thousands of years in the future decided to blindly follow this ancient belief system regardless of the ample evidence demonstrating it to be everything I have said it was up above, and as has been explained by TGY in more detail on this BB many, many, many times in the past.

The reason TGY and I continually participate in these discussions to the angst of unicorns and fairy believers is because we do not believe it is in the interest of beginners to get sucked into the fantasy world of modern day wannabes who don't have the slightest idea what they are talking about.

[Scott R. Brown]

Having stated all of the above:

If Qi actually does exist, and I am not saying it ABSOLUTELY does not, just that there is no compelling evidence that it does, intentionally developing it is a waste of valuable time one could spend doing actually training.

There is NO compelling evidence that demonstrates that ANYONE practicing qigong is any better at fighting, any healthier, or any more spiritually advanced that those who follow other methods not related to qigong.

In fact, historically speaking, more people HAVE NOT practiced qigong than have and there is not one feat performed by any qigong practitioner that has not been performed by many more who do not claim any qigong practice. [Edit: Okay, except for maybe those nutcases who drag trains around by their testicles!! That seems to be just a qigong phenomena.]

What does this demonstrate?

Either the effects are NOT produced by qi, and therefore qigong practice is unnecessary,

OR

Qi will develop naturally according to its own principles without any intentional training, guiding, cultivation, storage, etc. Which means, leave it alone and it will do whatever you need it to do, it will go wherever you need to go, just by performing actions of natural everyday activities. And therefore qigong practice is unnecessary!

[Empty_Cup]

先天 is normally translated to pre-natal and 後天 to post-natal. However I think the meaning is deeper than that and 先天 means anything in its original heavenly form and 後天 means after taking a physical shape in this world. My English is not good and the reason I didn’t use the English words is because I am not sure that’s the right translation. Thanks for this interpretation.

As for my analogy I was implying that not taking action won’t result in the ideal Daoist wuwei(non-action). As long as we are in 後天 everything exists in opposites and in order to bring everything back to the ideal state one needs a balance of using force and letting go. The same thing applies to qi cultivation exercises; you need to force the qi with your yi and at the same time you need to let it flow naturally. Finding the balance between these two will help you to succeed and progress.This is an interesting point. It reminds me a bit of when I hear people talk of a relaxed, yet very focused state.

Will you now agree? DUMB AS A DOOR!!!
__________________________________________________ ________________

...

When a people seek to make sense of their world, they must necessarily theorize about connections between apparent causes and what appear to be their effects. Qi was the theoretical solution to questions they could not answer concerning specific causes and their apparent effects. I DEFINITELY agree with this concept. Being a science guy, my understanding is that the practitioners of early qigong were merely employing the "scientific method" to their practice. It might not exactly be the Western definition of the scientific method but still relies on observation, hypothesis, and testing.

Absent a scientific understanding of physiology and biomechanics a theory was postulated and then held to be true concerning the effects created by performing specific actions/exercises.

...

Having stated all of the above:

If Qi actually does exist, and I am not saying it ABSOLUTELY does not, just that there is no compelling evidence that it does, intentionally developing it is a waste of valuable time one could spend doing actually training.

There is NO compelling evidence that demonstrates that ANYONE practicing qigong is any better at fighting, any healthier, or any more spiritually advanced that those who follow other methods not related to qigong.

In fact, historically speaking, more people HAVE NOT practiced qigong than have and there is not one feat performed by any qigong practitioner that has not been performed by many more who do not claim any qigong practice. [Edit: Okay, except for maybe those nutcases who drag trains around by their testicles!! That seems to be just a qigong phenomena.]Do you have any specific examples of comparable feats performed in a controlled environment by qigong/non-qigong practitioners? That would be really interesting to look at. Or maybe feats aside but some examples from the acupuncture, acrupressure world?

What does this demonstrate?

Either the effects are NOT produced by qi, and therefore qigong practice is unnecessary,

OR

Qi will develop naturally according to its own principles without any intentional training, guiding, cultivation, storage, etc. Which means, leave it alone and it will do whatever you need it to do, it will go wherever you need to go, just by performing actions of natural everyday activities. And therefore qigong practice is unnecessary!These are good points if we assume the above (evidence of comparable results from qigong/non-qigong practitioners.
Keeping the same assumptions there is also a subset/alternative option going along with the second one you mentioned above. That is; qi could develop naturally without intentional training but is also able to be directly manipulated if one has trained to do so. I think this is the belief most practitioners subscribe to. The most common example I've heard is the breath. Being an autonomic process it develops naturally but yet we can still choose to control it when we want to.

Comments in bold above

[Scott R. Brown]

先天 is normally translated to pre-natal and 後天 to post-natal. However I think the meaning is deeper than that and 先天 means anything in its original heavenly form and 後天 means after taking a physical shape in this world. My English is not good and the reason I didn’t use the English words is because I am not sure that’s the right translation.

Pre-natal is actually your genetic make up and how that influences your overall energy and vitality.

Post-natal is the air, food, water, exercise and non-genetic emotional state and belief system.

As for my analogy I was implying that not taking action won’t result in the ideal Daoist wuwei(non-action). As long as we are in 後天 everything exists in opposites and in order to bring everything back to the ideal state one needs a balance of using force and letting go. The same thing applies to qi cultivation exercises; you need to force the qi with your yi and at the same time you need to let it flow naturally. Finding the balance between these two will help you to succeed and progress.

Since you mentioned your English is not that good, I will not be as critical as I usually am with comments like this.

You NEVER force the qi, this is what causes problems. Blockages that are not illness or injury induced are emotionally induced. They are physical manifestations of mental stresses. When you force a mechanical breakup of the blockage, you do not actually resolve the emotional issue, you merely remove the physical expression of it robbing the body of an outlet for the stress. This causes problems because the physical manifestation is the expression of the energy, albeit in a not-as-healthy a manner as simply resolving the stress through introspection. When you rob the body of the physical manifestation all you have done is make the organism find another outlet.

The imbalance will find expression elsewhere when the physical manifestation is artificially removed, the body/mind will compensate by creating another manifestation/expression of the stress, often worse than the original malady!

This is why it is inadvisable to force qi to overcome blockages. The blockages are a symptom NOT the problem/cause. Eliminating the symptom does not address the cause and further symptoms WILL manifest and will continue to do so until the cause is addressed and resolved.

At any rate, qi should NEVER be pushed or forced by the Yi, it should be led. Even then it isn't a good idea under most circumstances.

[Scott R. Brown]

I DEFINITELY agree with this concept. Being a science guy, my understanding is that the practitioners of early qigong were merely employing the "scientific method" to their practice. It might not exactly be the Western definition of the scientific method but still relies on observation, hypothesis, and testing.

Yes, they were as scientific as it was possible to be. But they speculated a great deal and made a lot of stuff up theorizing without proof. It was a search for explanations for cause and effect relationships. Remember these are the guys who gave mercury pills to people in a belief it would promote immortality when, of course, all it did was kill them.

The most common logical fallacy of people blindly believing these ridiculous qigong methods are something special is the "appeal to authority". Just because these guys have fantastic TALES and they lived a long time ago, they know what they are talking about? But these same guys gave others mercury pills and believed other things we KNOW to be untrue, but they know everything there is not know about qi?

Do you have any specific examples of comparable feats performed in a controlled environment by qigong/non-qigong practitioners? That would be really interesting to look at. Or maybe feats aside but some examples from the acupuncture, acrupressure world?

History is replete with fantastic reports of feats of magic and strength. Fakirs are notable in India and ancient Perisa as well as Greece, Egypt many other places.

These are the cases I am referring too. I do not take these spectacles seriously. They are meaningless. These people did not conquer empires, win duels and were not successful generals. That are charlatans taking advantage of the naivety and ignorance of others.

These are good points if we assume the above (evidence of comparable results from qigong/non-qigong practitioners.

Keeping the same assumptions there is also a subset/alternative option going along with the second one you mentioned above. That is; qi could develop naturally without intentional training but is also able to be directly manipulated if one has trained to do so. I think this is the belief most practitioners subscribe to. The most common example I've heard is the breath. Being an autonomic process it develops naturally but yet we can still choose to control it when we want to.

Again the question is not whether qi can be manipulated, but whether it is advisable, and whether it is an efficient use of ones time and energy.

Once again there is no compelling evidence to demonstrate that it is. If one does not have an EXTREMELY knowledgeable instructor they will do more harm than good on an emotional and physical level.

If one is looking for a physical advantage, as Robinhood suggests he is, there is still no compelling evidence that there is any advantage other than fantastic anecdotes that cannot be proven. In the history of man, not ONE person has demonstrated their physical abilities come from special development of qi, in a manner that cannot be duplicate by others who do not attribute their accomplishment to qigong.

Which means, it either is not qi, or qi develops on its own without any need to take valuable training time practicing esoteric activities.

[bawang]

pre born/pre heaven means your natural abilities given to you by heaven. post born means supernatural abilities.


when you hit a plateau in training, that is your pre born limit. when you break that plateau you gain post born ability.


when you lift weights, first you progress very fast, then suddenly have problem lifting any heavier after a few weeks. when you keep training and slowly increase the weight you lift, you break your pre born theshold and gain post born ability. this how it is applied in chinese martial arts, both external muscle training and internal qi training.

[Scott R. Brown]

pre born/pre heaven means your natural abilities given to you by heaven. post born means supernatural abilities.


when you hit a plateau in training, that is your pre born limit. when you break that plateau you gain post born ability.


when you lift weights, first you progress very fast, then suddenly have problem lifting any heavier after a few weeks. when you keep training and slowly increase the weight you lift, you break your pre born theshold and gain post born ability. this how it is applied in chinese martial arts, both external muscle training and internal qi training.

I mostly agree with you. Preborn are your genetics, post born are what you are able to develop using your mind/ belief system to extend your apparent physical limitations.

There are no super-natural abilities. If they are accomplish- able they are natural.