Chaap Choi/Charp Choi

[jdhowland]

=hskwarrior;1182709]personally i don't have a desire for wing chun to try and adopt choy lee fut techniques to add to their arsenal. and if WC does have a chop choy it isn't like that of CLF.

Pretty much my point. It would be counterproductive and no longer WC.

the striking surface of a chop choy? so i take it that you think chop choy is something that is strictly a panther fist?

The shape of the fist has nothing to do with chaap. Chaap can be done with any shape of fist.

to answer the twisting issue....CLF chop choy has a twisting corkscrew chop choy but its not the only one either.

Yup.

[EternalSpring]

I will say this much:

Using chaap cheui in Ving Tsun is a waste of time unless you train waist torque and side power.

At least from what I've been training, both are in the luk dim boon gwon.

That said, Ving Tsun is really my main art, but with the philosophy and method I've been taught (and yes I do train in what people call a "traditional" sense), all these moves go together. Ving Tsun history is shady, but looking at nearly any lineage that exists, they all have stories of masters of multiple arts creating Ving Tsun.

I'm not sure about others, but I dont really train in a way where all of a sudden my kung fu is not kung fu because my stance is wider than expected or because I do a move that's not in a form. Then again, this could be the view I'm taught simply because I learn more than Ving Tsun from my sifu.

[EternalSpring]

personally i don't have a desire for wing chun to try and adopt choy lee fut techniques to add to their arsenal. and if WC does have a chop choy it isn't like that of CLF.

I find this to be somewhat contradictory to what CLF is, hell, even the name is made to pay homage to three masters of three styles, right?

the striking surface of a chop choy? so i take it that you think chop choy is something that is strictly a panther fist? choy lee fut doesn't use the same surface of wing chun strikes. we use the opposite surface. and a chop choy can be used many different ways. and because of people like the shaolin do fraud JAKE MACE (Jacob Rydberg) i'm not openly sharing things like that.

to answer the twisting issue....CLF chop choy has a twisting corkscrew chop choy but its not the only one either.

actually, my post said that I've seen more than one way, which is why I asked about diff variations. I dont think there's one way to do it (which is true for many techniques), but that's the beauty of the forums, the more people that answer, the more different views you see.

Also, Ving Tsun strikes dont necessarily use just "one" striking surface.

but thanks for that one twisting detail, that's one of the ways I've been training it in Ving Tsun as well. Of course, I know that no answer here will teach me CLF, and tbh, while i think CLF is cool, that's not really my intention here either. I'm more interested in looking into techniques that are the same or even slightly similar to what I do.

The only thing I'm stumped on now is how "stabbing" in the chop choy is diff from something like a "biu/thrusting" energy.

[EternalSpring]

The question I think should be asked is could you adapt a tsap choy for wing chun that works for wing chun framework? If not then what is the point? Especially since (as far as I know, but I don't practice either CLF or WC) CLF seems to emphasize whipping power while WC does not?

I know you weren't addressing me in your post, but just to give my view on this, I think a lot of kung fu styles/systems (and even non CMA) have a lot of energies and methods of generating power, it's just that not all of them are taught right away.

The reason I personally am interested in CLF and Hung Gar is because after having met people who talked about the form, and hearing what other say when they explain "details" of their techinque, it sounds like they're doing the same thing except in a wider frame with a "longer" kiu. For example, with twisting energy, most people will say Ving Tsun doesn't have it (or footwork, or hip shifting, etc lol), but as far as I know, not using this twisting energy just means all your techniques will most likely crumble under impact/pressure.

Even regarding various different types of power generation, whether it be whipping, twisting, stabbing, etc...I've at least been taught that all of them can be incorporated into the chain punch that's taught on the first day (of course, the diff is that it takes training to understand how to do this, which is why beginners will hardly ever show all these types of energy [not that im some great master, but these things usually get brought up more after the "beginner levels."]).

[EternalSpring]

I mean, technically, this doesn't look like Ving Tsun structure from the first three forms, but these type of movements are def part of the curriculum (well at least for me, but im sure a lot of Chunners would be familiar with this)

GrandMaster Moy Yat

[hskwarrior]

I find this to be somewhat contradictory to what CLF is, hell, even the name is made to pay homage to three masters of three styles, right?

right. but we confine it to these three and only these three. CLF doesn't go to other systems because IMHO opinion its complete. we have everything that any other dangerous systems have.

however, wing chun adopting the true essences of CLF Chop Choy is like Choy Lee Fut turning our horses inward and doing chain punches WC style. we would no longer be CLF. we would be wing chun influenced CLF instead.

actually, my post said that I've seen more than one way, which is why I asked about diff variations. I dont think there's one way to do it (which is true for many techniques), but that's the beauty of the forums, the more people that answer, the more different views you see.

Also, Ving Tsun strikes dont necessarily use just "one" striking surface.

but thanks for that one twisting detail, that's one of the ways I've been training it in Ving Tsun as well. Of course, I know that no answer here will teach me CLF, and tbh, while i think CLF is cool, that's not really my intention here either. I'm more interested in looking into techniques that are the same or even slightly similar to what I do.

yeah i believe you should be asking your sifu's this. not learning how to off of a forum. fuk that KUNG FU is FREE junk. (not saying you said that). sure this is filled with martial arts folks, but you don't know if people are fooling you. ask you sifu about it, see what he thinks.

yeah, you have to be careful with what CLF you're dealing with or you can get caught up in some mess. if you want to learn CLF you should find someone to teach it to you. or you will be everything jake mace jacob rydberg is all about.

my best advice, don't do it the chicken sh1t way. you will never really comprehend TRUE CLF that way.

The punch in the pic you show isn't necessarily a chop choy. and you can't put CLF into WC and still call it WING CHUN. Same vice versa. apples and oranges.

[EternalSpring]

right. but we confine it to these three and only these three. CLF doesn't go to other systems because IMHO opinion its complete. we have everything that any other dangerous systems have.

however, wing chun adopting the true essences of CLF Chop Choy is like Choy Lee Fut turning our horses inward and doing chain punches WC style. we would no longer be CLF. we would be wing chun influenced CLF instead.



yeah i believe you should be asking your sifu's this. not learning how to off of a forum. fuk that KUNG FU is FREE junk. (not saying you said that). sure this is filled with martial arts folks, but you don't know if people are fooling you. ask you sifu about it, see what he thinks.

yeah, you have to be careful with what CLF you're dealing with or you can get caught up in some mess. if you want to learn CLF you should find someone to teach it to you. or you will be everything jake mace jacob rydberg is all about.

my best advice, don't do it the chicken sh1t way. you will never really comprehend TRUE CLF that way.

The punch in the pic you show isn't necessarily a chop choy. and you can't put CLF into WC and still call it WING CHUN. Same vice versa. apples and oranges.

See, you're not understanding the obvious point that I'm not trying to replace the two systems, or add them together, or anything like that really. In fact, the first post alone shows that I'm actually asking about this technique not just from CLF, but also from Hung Gar, and tbh, any style that uses the technique.

I understand that you're somewhat emotionally distraught over what that Jake dude did, and I can even understand what that feeling is like, but you have to realize that this is not what I'm trying to do. Not everyone is Jake, and tbh, I totally share your view in regards to what he's doing.

I have talked to my Sifu, a sisook, and by sheer luck, gotten a few words from my Sigong on this as well. I'm not trying to learn your style or even your technique. training kung fu myself, I know that's not a smart move to do, especially through the internet. What I am trying to do is observe other things to find similarities and differences in comparison to what I know through my training. You dont need to duplicate what someone else does to learn something from it. For example, everything mentioned about things like twisting energy and side energy are not foreign to me, but now that I've heard others from other styles talk about it, my mind is going "ahh, so we're not the only ones who have this concept."

You guys can tell me anything, in fact, you could tell me the opposite of what chop choy is to spite me. But I'm only looking for concepts to relate to what I know and enhance my own knowledge. You could be the very creator of CLF itself, but if your advice or words dont do anything for me or give me anything to think about, that's the end of it right there. I'm not trying to fill in voids in my Ving Tsun, because like you feel about your style/system, I also feel that the Ving Tsun I learn is complete. That's actually exactly why I'm here, because I feel that whatever you say, I can probably understand it because Ving Tsun has all the energies for those who train it the way it should be trained. IMO, that's why people who diligently train martial artists can learn from each other despite style differences.

[hskwarrior]

good luck in your quest bro

[EternalSpring]

[jdhowland]

EternalSpring, if you are trying to improve your understanding of your own chaap cheui by looking at other systems it could be misleading. CLF isn't the only southern system to use the term and the concept may vary in different styles.

If you look at the way in which a spear deals with another weapon you might have an idea of the CLF "stab." The twist that hskwarrior mentioned is another clue. The chaap is not a basic thrust because it expects obstruction and deals with it without losing too much force on the way.

You could, and obviously do, use a similar concept even if you do not use CLF structure. So you could have a related concept expressed as a different animal altogether.

[hskwarrior]

you could, and obviously do, use a similar concept even if you do not use clf structure. So you could have a related concept expressed as a different animal altogether.

:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

[TenTigers]

"eternalSpring, if you are trying to improve your understanding of your own chaap cheui by looking at other systems it could be misleading"

True, if you get too caught up in the differences and not examine the similarities-or where and how they fit.

With the right mindset, therre is nothing wrong with trying to better understand usage of a technique by studying how systems that specialize and developed and refined that technique>
How else do you think people evolved their arts?

[EternalSpring]

EternalSpring, if you are trying to improve your understanding of your own chaap cheui by looking at other systems it could be misleading. CLF isn't the only southern system to use the term and the concept may vary in different styles.

If you look at the way in which a spear deals with another weapon you might have an idea of the CLF "stab." The twist that hskwarrior mentioned is another clue. The chaap is not a basic thrust because it expects obstruction and deals with it without losing too much force on the way.

You could, and obviously do, use a similar concept even if you do not use CLF structure. So you could have a related concept expressed as a different animal altogether.

Yea, the way i was introduced to it seemed to be more "hung gar" oriented, or so I've heard. When my sisook showed it to me it was through his punching at me, my kiu/bridge intercepting his, and then his kiu making contact but using that contact to get under my kiu and hit me with the "charp choi." I guess I may have gave off a vibe of more interest in CLF because CLF is a style that I personally find interesting. I also understand that there are mantis styles that use a technique by the same name as well.

And I'm especially grateful for that detail in the bold. The detail that you mentioned about the spear was also very useful, because Ive heard that a lot of the pole/gwon techniques I train are also used with the spear, and I at least understand a tiny bit about about you mean about the spear dealing w/ another weapon and the charp choi being a move that expects obstruction.

And yea, I think I do have a related way of expressing an energy similar to charp choi, although I guess I'll only be sure when I one day train in those arts that focus on them. In the meantime, I find it to be a very useful type of strike. I dont know if these are considered the same as all, but I also find the same energy to be useful in boxing when one quickly steps forward with the front leg and throwing a jab to the body and then shooting back up to the normal guard/stance, although I'm sure there are a bunch of differences there too.

[EternalSpring]

"eternalSpring, if you are trying to improve your understanding of your own chaap cheui by looking at other systems it could be misleading"

True, if you get too caught up in the differences and not examine the similarities-or where and how they fit.

With the right mindset, therre is nothing wrong with trying to better understand usage of a technique by studying how systems that specialize and developed and refined that technique>
How else do you think people evolved their arts?

Thanks for clarifying! I see it the same way as well. I dont really plan to get caught up in other people's words to the point that they overrule my own training and my own sifu and kung fu family. But at the same time, I agree that it's always awesome to talk to people who specialize in certain skills.

On a side note, I guess I can understand how others can view my thread and questions as being somewhat strange. It's probably the same way I feel when I see someone post a strange thread in the Ving Tsun sections that states some basic question like "Does Wing Chun have kicks?" lol.

But yea, you said it much better than I did; I'm really just interested in seeing the opinions of people who specialize in the techniques that I'm learning. I agree that such insight is indeed very beneficial if used correctly rather than being used as a replacement for a sifu or as a means to learn a style.

[hskwarrior]

part of understanding the chop choy is found in the name itself.