Iron palm/body questions

[Dale Dugas]

Iron Vest does not make your body able to withstand knives.

Anyone who thinks that is not using their brain.

It does help you take more abuse than normal untrained people.

It is not magic.

It is hard work to train the fascia and tissues of the body in order to take abuse.

[ginosifu]

One of my students got into a fight and was cut by knife badly. He lost faith in my system. He went to learn "iron vest" which he believed he would never be cut by knife again.

To somebody, iron body is more than just conditioning. It's a bulletproof vest.

The boxer rebellion of 1901 proved that Iron Body does not work against metal (bullets fired from guns). You can make your body tougher thru proper exercises, but knives you must follow Mr. Miyagi (No be dare).

ginosifu

[Yoshiyahu]

What is Iron Body, How do you develop it in wing chun or any other fighting systems you tried out...

In my lineage we basically use dit da jow and lots of hard hitting sparring to the body.

there are other methods we neglected....Like trading punches & kicks and drop fall techniques. In boxing they use a medicine ball that you practice having dropped on you. Some Muay Thai guys use a small wood beam an drop it on their chin to make their chin more conditioned over time.

What do you do?



AS for chi kung. I dont believe chi gung alone will make you super conditioned or super strong..chi gung is basically to heal you and increase blood circulation for the abuse your body endures an to speed up recover for muscle break down and tissue injuries. Basically Chi Gung heals your muscles, tissue, ligaments and skin....The more you use your hand it gets callous the same with other things you do to body....chi gung and dit da jow are for healing and recovery!

[Yoshiyahu]

Iron Palm and Fist allows you to strike harder areas of the body with more force ie the head.

If a child who never punched anything hit a punching bag full force he would hurt his hands, knuckles and wrist. But a man who has never done any conditioning would also feel the same pain as that child. By hitting a heavy bag or wall bag or makiwara you build power and conditioning. Boxers use medicine balls to conditioned their stomachs for heavy blows. Professionals also do 1000 sit ups daily to tighten those muslces to advoid internal damage...a strong enough boxer can break ribs or cause internal bleeding like a bruise kidney even with gloves on. I work with a guy who did Muay thai who actually got kicked very hard in a bout an had to go to hospital. His abdomen wasnt conditioned enough to take that blow.

Some bareknuckle fighters soaked their hand in various chemicals to make their fist harder...But they also hit a punching bag for conditioning.

Iron skills should be as much apart of conditioning as cardio, timing, strength, speed, and cooridation....

Basically Iron Palm/Fist is making your hands tougher and stronger to release and take greater impact!

[imperialtaichi]

Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma

[Dale Dugas]

You need to strengthen the fascia and over time it will thicken and then you can activate it and learn to accept the force coming through your body and dissolve it into the ground.

beating yourself with objects is not iron body training but Pai Da Gung which is a component of Iron Body training.

You need to train the internal(fascia) and the external(dermal tissue) to accept more abuse.

[Bacon]

Okay now I know some of my threads concerning iron training methods have disagreed with certain folks in the past. I'm posting this thread purely for the purposes of learning what folks on here do as part of their training. Though there may be questions by myself regarding the why and the how I think the critique of "does iron palm work" has been done to death.

So for those of you who practice or teach iron palm I have a few questions for you:

1. What regimen do you start your new students with?
2. Once they've achieved proficiency at that regimen what do you progress them to?
3. Approximately how long does #1 usually take
4. What are the next levels you progress them to?
5. Are there any supplementary exercises you usually get the. To do besides hitting the canvas bags (grip exercises, forearm strengthening etc.)?
6. Do you personally think jow is necessary or important?
7. Do you practice breaking? If yes when and why?

Again I will query as to why and how but I will not critique.

[Hanak]

My friend practice this form of kung fu, and he is nice and far in it.

What he tells me is, you need to implement CHAN,QI QONG and your KUNG FU in it.
To master it!

I guess he's right about it!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't teach IH training to anyone,most people don't have the dedication or, to be honest, even need that type of training.
For the vast majority, the conditioning they get from hitting the bag is enough.
For those that want to learn it I insist on them being able to fight well/effectively first.
I have found that some end up relying "too much" on their IH and their fighting skills get downgraded.

[Dale Dugas]

You train twice a day for the first year.

You than train daily for another year.

after that you train whenever you want.


I train my hands 2-3 days a week.

This for basic Iron Palm, most people NEVER get through this and give up before they are finished.

Sad but true.

I have rarely taught the advanced levels where you switch from hard contact to focusing it down and abbreviating the movement but still allowing for maximum power generation through the structure.

I have the softest hands around but people have seen me break concrete, coconuts etc. I can make them hard at anytime. The liniments are to protect you from seriously injuring yourself. I have no issues with my hands and I needle people all day with very thin needles.

Many people who train their hands without medicine have serious arthritis and other joint issues.

[xinyidizi]

I first started with hitting a mung bean bag and changed it to iron after a few weeks. There is also a neigong ritual before and after hitting the bag.

There is a pleasant feeling in my hands when I apply the yao jiu but I haven't tried it without the yaojiu to know the difference.

[Dale Dugas]

always use the Liniment.

Injuries and health issues are negated with the use of liniment.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In regards to Jow:
Honestly, until you have used the good stuff, you really have no idea how well that **** works !

[Dale Dugas]

I make some of the strongest unwatered down dit da jow out there. Beware those who are not licensed acupuncturists/herbalists.

I am having a Falling Ahead sale. All you have to do is type in Fall Ahead in the coupon code box at checkout and you will save 10% off your entire order. Good until Xmas.

Sanjuro Ronin and many others here and on other boards can attest to my liniments and their efficacy.

www.coilingdragon.com to order.

[PlumDragon]

1. What regimen do you start your new students with?
Slapping the bag with 3-4 different hand formations. Repetitions and rate of progression are not fixed but depend on the person. I start my students on gravel. I teach the qigong routines but stress that I feel the qigong is the least important part of the training.


2. Once they've achieved proficiency at that regimen what do you progress them to?
Steel shot bag after a couple months on gravel, initially lightly, and then with some power so that the student can learn the power generation. Its at this point I start working with methods of slapping concrete if the student wants to get into breaking.


3. Approximately how long does #1 usually take
#1 takes very little time; 3 months maximum.


4. What are the next levels you progress them to?
There are a variety of other types of training ranging from benign to IMO, dangerous, most of which are a bit more in depth to explain. Wall bags, open medium, gripping, tension drills, etc etc...Most of this has to do with creativity, and anyone can come up with a new spin on training that is useful since its not been done previously.


5. Are there any supplementary exercises you usually get the. To do besides hitting the canvas bags (grip exercises, forearm strengthening etc.)?
To be clear: Iron palm IS one of the supplementary exercises, along with all that stuff you mentioned--None of it has anything to do with fighting--its just conditioning. Just because you break stuff or hit hard or have a strong grip or whatever doesnt mean you can apply it under pressure, and it certainly doesnt mean you know the first thing about fighting. Its just supplementary work.


6. Do you personally think jow is necessary or important?
The short answer: YES! Anyone who has experimented on a steel shot bag with and without jow knows this.
The more thorough answer is, it really depends on what youre doing: If youre just dropping your hand lightly on a rice bag, I really dont think its necessary although it would still be helpful. However, if youre really wanting to push yourself and get the most out of the training, then jow is a no-brainer and a very important necessity for the health of your hands.

7. Do you practice breaking? If yes when and why?
Yes, I practice breaking, although its been nearly a year since Ive really broke anything. Only reason why is that I enjoy breaking, its a nice feeling to successfully make a difficult break, because it really does require a lot of conditioning and power to be able to do some breaks. With that said, it really doesnt have anything to do with fighting.

For me, iron palm is just something I do to bide my time when I dont have a training partner. As Ive said before, the best fighters Ive ever met have done *NO* conditioning work at all, save for what they get from actually training under pressure. No bag strikes, no shin conditioning, etc etc. They just worked on fighting so thats what they got good at...