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Thread: Iron palm/body questions

  1. #16
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    The most effective martial artists Ive ever met dont do any specific conditioning at all--that includes Thai-style shin conditioning. They just get whatever conditioning comes from actually training in an organic, pressurized environment.

    Most people I know who do iron palm (including *most* of my iron palm students) cant apply it in the above setting because once theyre put under pressure, the body mechanics disappear. And its the same reason they cant apply 99% of the "techniques" they learn in forms and such (to clarify, I dont teach forms. Im referring to other martial artists who do formwork).

    Iron palm does provide some interesting attribute development and I personally enjoy doing it--anyone whos done it diligently for some time can notice it. And anyone whos taken a few months off from it after years of doing it can feel the hands start to get less robust, adapt back to normal. But this attribute development is worthless unless you have trained it under pressure and can successfully pull it off at will at progressively increasing levels of pressure. For most people who train iron palm, its nothing more than a circus act...the ability to break a block is a totally different activity than trying to apply the strike to someones head while theyre trying to do the same to you. If you want skill in your martial art, you train diligently with partners who will put your timing, composure, and reaction to the test...Conditioning is done when you dont have someone around to help you get better...

  2. #17
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    I agree with what a number of folks have said regarding iron bone conditioning as complementary to your fighting training...iron bone should not be your only training. It of course makes sense that somebody who only trains to hit a stationary object and never spars, does aerobic exercises, flexibility, speed training, etc. will not be much of an actual fighter.

  3. #18
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    When you get old, your finger joint start to develop some arthritics and can't hold a proper fist, your iron palm may be the only dependable striking weapon that you have left.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    So Kevin73,

    If its a LOW level as you hint at.

    What pray tell would the advanced methods be?
    Hitting a bag with softer materials (mung beans) is the starting level of iron palm/iron body is it not? Then you move up to a harder material (gravel) and then you move up again into an even harder material (steel shot).

    So, the starting level is a lower level than where you end up at isn't it? So just hitting a heavy bag is a low level of skill in terms of total iron palm training.


    I wasn't down grading the skill, I was pointing out that it is the same training just not taken to a higher level of skill, such as, short power breaking etc. that someone who trains iron palm a long time can do. The question was why don't pro fighters do iron training, my answer is that they do. They just don't call it that and stay at the initial level many times.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin73 View Post
    Hitting a bag with softer materials (mung beans) is the starting level of iron palm/iron body is it not? Then you move up to a harder material (gravel) and then you move up again into an even harder material (steel shot).

    So, the starting level is a lower level than where you end up at isn't it? So just hitting a heavy bag is a low level of skill in terms of total iron palm training.


    I wasn't down grading the skill, I was pointing out that it is the same training just not taken to a higher level of skill, such as, short power breaking etc. that someone who trains iron palm a long time can do. The question was why don't pro fighters do iron training, my answer is that they do. They just don't call it that and stay at the initial level many times.
    I understood your initial comment Kevin73 as not being provocative and agree with what you mention above.

    Maybe here's the real question for folks, why don't professional fighters practice the more advanced levels of iron bone training beyond heavy bag work and sparring?

  6. #21
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    Because they dont need to. They are in a ring. There are ref's. They arent fighting for their life. They have gloves on. There are time limits, and doctors, and TKO's. keep in mind the individuals who developed these methods had none of those luxuries, in many cases. Iron skills were developed for very specific reasons. Some times they were fighting for their lives, or their men were. The better equiped you are to take heavy brunt force and not break, and continue, the longer you will be able to stay going and not sucumb to bodily failure, and thus death or serious injury, or worse, failure.

    We dont NEED high end iron skills now days. No body needs it. Its a past time now, something to do because we want to. Also, because many people dont want to see these traditions and methods die into complete obscurity.

    It takes time to develop, every day, time a professional fighter would be better off spending on training for their sport.

    Fighters simply get the by product form of iron training. Standard bone hardening from hitting things and being hit. Its enough to toughen us up beyond regular people who dont do this type of thing.
    Last edited by Lucas; 09-10-2012 at 03:01 PM.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Cup View Post
    My understanding is that native Thai fighters practice their shin kicks against banana trees which is a form of iron shin conditioning. As far as your question of why more full contact fighters don't practice...that's a good question. Have you ever crossed hands with somebody who has done iron bone conditioning for 5, 10, 15, 20+ years?

    The science of Wolff's law is well-known. We even observe the opposite effect regularly in astronauts who go to space. Not sure why you're so adamant in denying what science has come to understand through years of observation, hypothesis, and experimentation.
    If you have ever been kicked real hard in the shin you must also realize that kicking with the shin hurts just as bad. Imagine the pain and suffering that you will go through kicking trees for years. Not to mention the scabs and proud flesh. I gots to question the sanity of this, especially since you would not really need to do it.
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  8. #23
    Have you guys trained iron back, stomach or chest? If so do you use jow and if so how? On the wing lam dvd they didn't go over using jow for those parts so I took it they don't use it for those areas.

  9. #24
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    doesn't matter what body part..except for eyes and "the boys".;-)
    You rub jow in the same way as if it is a bruise-
    soak a cotton ball in heated jow and saturate the area for several minutes.
    Lightly massage with the cotton ball while doing this. Then apply deeper massage into the affected area in a circular motion from the inside out, keeping it wet to prevent friction on the surface.
    If you don't go from inside out, you will be left with a non-bruised inner area with a pretty purple corona.
    My teacher used to then slap the area several times to stimulate circulation and then lightly brush towards the heart.
    Do this 3x a day.

    You should also drink tien chut (raw tienchi powder) in hot water with honey whenever you do iron training, or when you have hard contact to the body, say, after a good shuai-jiao class or sparring.
    Last edited by TenTigers; 09-19-2012 at 02:01 PM.
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  10. #25
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    There are also internal dit da jows and internal tonics that can be used to help your training.

    San Qi/Tin Chut powder can be expensive but its the most used martial arts injury herb out there. You can take it with a shot of alcohol as that will help move it around the whole body. I sell it in my herb store.

    You can also get the whole herb and place it in some high proof alcohol and then take a shot of it after you hit yourself.

    I make and sell internal tonics that are designed to help with internal and external iron palm/iron body training. You want to make sure you are moving your energy and it is not getting stuck in areas so there are channel opening herbs as well as blood/qi moving herbs.

    Let me know if anyone needs internal herbs.
    Last edited by Dale Dugas; 09-19-2012 at 02:06 PM.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    There are also internal dit da jows and internal tonics that can be used to help your training.

    San Qi/Tin Chut powder can be expensive but its the most used martial arts injury herb out there. You can take it with a shot of alcohol as that will help move it around the whole body. I sell it in my herb store.

    You can also get the whole herb and place it in some high proof alcohol and then take a shot of it after you hit yourself.

    I make and sell internal tonics that are designed to help with internal and external iron palm/iron body training. You want to make sure you are moving your energy and it is not getting stuck in areas so there are channel opening herbs as well as blood/qi moving herbs.

    Let me know if anyone needs internal herbs.
    I also use Tien Chut in wine or brandy...
    a heckuva lot better tasting than that cobra
    I had last summer....
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
    doesn't matter what body part..except for eyes and "the boys".;-)
    You rub jow in the same way as if it is a bruise-
    soak a cotton ball in heated jow and saturate the area for several minutes.
    Lightly massage with the cotton ball while doing this. Then apply deeper massage into the affected area in a circular motion from the inside out, keeping it wet to prevent friction on the surface.
    If you don't go from inside out, you will be left with a non-bruised inner area with a pretty purple corona.
    My teacher used to then slap the area several times to stimulate circulation and then lightly brush towards the heart.
    Do this 3x a day.

    You should also drink tien chut (raw tienchi powder) in hot water with honey whenever you do iron training, or when you have hard contact to the body, say, after a good shuai-jiao class or sparring.
    Yeah I got a bruise on my forearm now I have jow and everything it's just how should I go about applying to hard to get areas like the head or back? Dale, any bruise plasters from your site you recommend? Any update on the bags?, that and I see some of the plasters are sold out too. Sorry to bother about bothering about the bags I'm going to be going on vacation soon for a few weeks :P and was wondering if I should expect the when I return.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    So let me ask you guys something. If iron palm/body/leg/whatever is realy all it's cracked up to be why aren't there any legitimate professional full contact fighters who have it as a part of their training routine?
    I've seen Thai fighters kick though maple baseball bats, and those are hard. That's without anything beyond heavy bag, pads, and sparring.

    Also another question. How much, if any, do you think iron palm increases the resistance of bones to fracture and breakage in pounds per square inch?

    Most likely it's just because it was not part of their teacher's / coaches training regimine. Iron Palm is conditioning, just like any other conditioning. You need conditioning + technique + pressure testing + strength for an overall good fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    Well, palm conditioning is a real thing. You don't see MMA guys do palm strikes too often, though (maybe some Sakuraba style stuff). I assume there are no rules preventing this type of strike. A punch has better range than a palm strike so more guys punch. A punch also better protects the fingers.

    Also, real fighting is very instinctive, and making a fist to generate power is more instinctive than using a palm. Not to mention, a tightly clenched fist allows more overall tension to be generated thus more powerful strikes can be generated.

    I suspect palm strikes would work best from a grappling range when you're already close and distance isn't an issue.

    Professional fighters do body conditioning. They don't call it "iron body" but they get struck a lot and it increases their ability with withstand strikes in the future. There's no silly qigong component to it. It just happens as part of their training. I don't know if any guys do specific body conditioning training outside of sparring, but I'm sure some probably have at some point.

    Most of the "iron body" demos you see are just stage tricks and physics tricks and are blamed on "qi" and designed to make people who want to believe think you have mystic powers. I have written at length about this in other posts so there's no reason to repeat myself here, but if any qigong-based iron body practitioner wanted to show that he was actually using qi rather than physical conditioning and stage tricks, there are easy ways to do so. So far, no one has done it.

    So obviously you don't see any of that stuff with professional fighters because they are more concerned with improving their fighting rather than impressing people who want to believe with mystic stage tricks.

    Muay thai shin conditioning is basically the same thing as iron palm. The bone gets denser because of Wolff's law. Resistance to pain is increased because of a gradual increase in training intensity. Some Muay Thai guys use some liniment. You can use jow, or that peppermint smelling stuff, or Arnica if you believe in homeopathy, or just regular massage, or whatever. The point is to stimulate blood flow. There's no qigong involved in Muay Thai shin training. Iron palm will likely work just as well without the qigong component.
    I would disagree with your statement that a clenched fist is more instinctive that a palm. A clenched fit is a learned habit, a open palm is natural and moves faster than a clenched fist.

    TCMA Iron Body is the same as any other body conditioning. You hit your body parts progressively harder and more times like Iron Palm. However, that silly Qigong is a part of it. Breathing practices are a part of many TCMA training regimines. This is not to say that other practices without qigong don't work or are not as effective, just different.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlumDragon View Post
    The most effective martial artists Ive ever met dont do any specific conditioning at all--that includes Thai-style shin conditioning. They just get whatever conditioning comes from actually training in an organic, pressurized environment.

    Most people I know who do iron palm (including *most* of my iron palm students) cant apply it in the above setting because once theyre put under pressure, the body mechanics disappear. And its the same reason they cant apply 99% of the "techniques" they learn in forms and such (to clarify, I dont teach forms. Im referring to other martial artists who do formwork).

    Iron palm does provide some interesting attribute development and I personally enjoy doing it--anyone whos done it diligently for some time can notice it. And anyone whos taken a few months off from it after years of doing it can feel the hands start to get less robust, adapt back to normal. But this attribute development is worthless unless you have trained it under pressure and can successfully pull it off at will at progressively increasing levels of pressure. For most people who train iron palm, its nothing more than a circus act...the ability to break a block is a totally different activity than trying to apply the strike to someones head while theyre trying to do the same to you. If you want skill in your martial art, you train diligently with partners who will put your timing, composure, and reaction to the test...Conditioning is done when you dont have someone around to help you get better...
    Again I disagree with the statement that practcies like Iron Palm don't work in real combat situations. It takes a Sifu that knows how to teach you the way to hit with IP. You also needs specific drills (solo and partner), that use only IP techniques. If you are diligent you can learn to apply them in combat. Now I do not have any video of me slapping anyone with my IP but I can use it Sparring or San Da situations. I have not enough street fights to have used it there though.

    ginosifu
    Last edited by ginosifu; 09-20-2012 at 05:00 AM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    ...


    Again I disagree with the statement that practcies like Iron Palm don't work in real combat situations. It takes a Sifu that knows how to teach you the way to hit with IP. You also needs specific drills (solo and partner), that use only IP techniques. If you are diligent you can learn to apply them in combat. Now I do not have any video of me slapping anyone with my IP but I can use it Sparring or San Da situations. I have not enough street fights to have used it there though.

    ginosifu
    Iron Bone conditioning isn't really a "technique" you have to find an opening to use on your opponent. It densifies and strengthens the bones/sinews so by practicing Iron Bone it's always a part of you. In a fight whether you slap somebody, block, or kick them with a shin, you have iron bone conditioning and it will be a more effective slap, block, kick, etc. than it was before you trained iron bone.

    So, there is no "pressure testing" for applying iron bone conditioning because if you've conditioned, you already have it. There is, of course, "pressure testing" for actual fighting technique and skill but that is separate from whether somebody has done iron bone conditioning or not.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    Again I disagree with the statement that practcies like Iron Palm don't work in real combat situations. It takes a Sifu that knows how to teach you the way to hit with IP. You also needs specific drills (solo and partner), that use only IP techniques. If you are diligent you can learn to apply them in combat. Now I do not have any video of me slapping anyone with my IP but I can use it Sparring or San Da situations. I have not enough street fights to have used it there though.
    Hi Ginosifu,
    I didnt mean to imply that "practices like iron palm dont work in real combat situations." Theres nothing about iron palm itself that makes it unusable. Let me try to elaborate a bit:

    Conditioning is done outside of a pressurized situation. There is no threat. That is true for Thai kicks and limb-knocking and all that stuff. Therefore, those skills are only available in that non-pressurized setting. For iron palm or whatever to work under pressure, it has to be trained under pressure. Im not talking about "pressure testing". Its not about testing it under pressure, its about actually installing it under pressure, with a threat, real-time. Thats why I say, the best fighters Ive ever met dispense with conditioning entirely--they understand that time spent in the mix is where the skill is built--not in front of a bag, or a banana tree, or whatever. And subsequently, when I work with my students, even though I encourage them to conditioning in their spare time, I feel there are more important things to work on while they are in a class or similar setting...

    You say you use it in san da and sparring. But do you think you are issuing the same amount of power? Maybe as you attack, you are thinking, "Hey Im using my iron palm!", and maybe even the motion is similar...But how do you know your body mechanics are intact as they are when youre slapping your bag? These are rhetorical questions, Im not attempting to disregard or repute your statements above. Just food for thought...

    Empty cup: Theres a lot more to "iron bone" than strengthening the bone and sinew. Its body mechanics. You just slap a bag and get hard hands, you still dont have the power generation...
    Last edited by PlumDragon; 09-20-2012 at 05:59 AM.

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